How to change the world
Before this goes into the newsletter, I’d like to run it here. It concerns our different attempts to tell the world about Noah’s Laws. I was reading the beginning of Leviticus, next week’s regularly scheduled Torah portion. This thought popped up:
All our efforts to reach others need to:
1) begin with the Golden Rule - treat others as you would have others to treat you. Then,Â
2) we have the Noahide Laws (from which the Golden Rule is derived). The Noahide Laws give the Golden Rule the supporting framework that it absolutely needs - the reference points it requires. People who believe in the Golden Rule who don’t have the Noahide Laws commit the most horrible atrocities in the name of compassion and what they think is right. . . Then,
3) we have what Leviticus is all about, the Divine call to Israel AND TO ALL Noahides: You shall be holy because I the L’rd your G’d am holy.” (Leviticus 19:2).Â
We - speaking of the entire Noahide and Torah outreach movement, not just First Covenant or Rainbow Covenant - may have had the order of these things mixed up, earlier. We usually started with 1) theology and Who is HaShem, G’d of Israel, then 2) the Noahide Laws, and only then 3) the Golden Rule - if we even mentioned it at all.
We tend to take the Golden Rule for granted, it’s “old stuff” to us, but it really is where we need to start. It should be where we all wind up, too.
Hiram,
A good idea might be to engage in a bit of outreach among sympathetic Christians. Not every Christian group has the same beliefs, and more than a few of the Christian groups disavow the some or all of Nicene Creed (which ascribes divinity to Jesus). Some Christian denominations are unitarians, placing emphasis G’d alone (with Jesus relegated to the role of a prophet or somesuch). Orthodox Christians tend to consider these types to be Christian in name only, and, sadly, a lot of bickering can occur between Christians with different opinions about Jesus.
From my perspective, Christians are going to play an important role in Torah outreach (by virtue of sheer numbers). They are the ones that, above all, need to hear truthfully about the 7M (from the Jews and from Gentiles themselves who’ve seen the correct perspective of Torah). Our world is at 6.5 billion and there are over 2 billion Christians; roughly 1 out of 3 persons alive right now is a Christian of some sort. Turning them Torah is a monumental challenge.
The question is, how do you do so? Do you present Noahidism as an alternative to Christianity or can a Christian follow the 7M and still remain a Christian? Interesting questions, of course.
Personally, I’m trying to follow the example of Aime Palliere, who considered himself to be both a Noahide and a Roman Catholic. I add to this all sorts of eclectic knowledge.
Blessings,
RW.
Responding to Robert’s comment, and Hiram,
Robert, you spoke before (in our prior blog) about Israel the people and Israel the movement. By movement, you were including people who aren’t Jewish who believe in Israel’s religion - people who belong to the same religious communion, the same community of faith, as Israel, who aren’t bound by the same laws and ordinances as Israel but who still look to those laws and ordinances as worthy.
Now you’re speaking of “the religion of love.” This makes me think of what seems to be Maimonides’ point, about Noahides needing to keep the 7 Laws in some sense (it’s not clear exactly how or just what he means) while sticking with their old ways, and not trying to invent any kind of new Torah-based religion for themselves.
He says - again, this isn’t completely clear, I thought I had nailed it in Rainbow Covenant but maybe not - they should either take up the full yoke of Torah (that is, become Jews, Orthodox Jews), or keep their former communion. At least, that’s what some people think he means.
Is this what you’re doing? How do you do this? I mean, isn’t Christianity innately opposed to Torah in many ways?
I’m not trying to argue you into any particular position - my hope here is to understand the dynamic of whatever it is that’s happening. I’ve seen this with some, a few, of my favorite Noahides before - they go back to Christianity, tho w/ all sorts of reservations. At the same time, some, a few, of the Noahides who present themselves as being more inclined towards Torah don’t seem all that passionate about it. . .
Let me know what’s up, ok? Also, you left a post on the blog about Christianity lacking honesty. I want to make the 7M more attractive to Xtians and, as i remember, said something palliative. It would be good if you could go back to that string and address that last statement.
At the very least, I think that the 7M are important not just for Jews but for Xtians to know about. I see a basic tension between the 7M and Xtianity, but Xtianty should - well, suppose you tell me how you think Xtianity can incorporate the 7M? How about both you and Hiram taking up that question you asked Hiram and elaborating on it? And maybe Andrea, and anyone else. I’d like to get your thoughts. Thinking helps keep us honest. . . .
Michael,
I don’t have any desire to worship Jesus (again). I’ve gotten over that trap. I guess I’m like Palliere, who was attracted to the civilization and institutions of Christianity and not so much its theology (which is mostly purloined to begin with, from a number of sources). Once a person really realizes this, they won’t see Christianity again in the same way.
Christianity is a Gentile religion, and Gentiles should feel comfortable with a religion that has (rightly and wrongly) represented their interests for 2,000 years. This is a matter of historical fact, that for centuries the West has (was?) been the institution we call Christendom. Maybe I should make my a clarification: I don’t so much support the religion of the Christians as I support its civilization. Western Christian civilization is radically different than any other civilization on earth, moreso because of its Biblical roots.
Now, the 7M appear to me to be what Christianity was probably intended to be. I don’t see it as a great difficulty in doing away with all of the excess baggage of Christianity and following the 7M. It takes a lot of dedication to do this, and not everyone is up to the task. It’s not an affront to Jesus if I excuse myself from worshipping him as G’d; I know what I need to remind myself of. Some of these points, lately come to, are:
* Torah is the true Bible of Jesus (and Jesus’ followers).
* Christian literature has a history of being contradictory.
* Monotheism is a cooperation *with* Judaism, not against it, and Judaism was never meant to be made obsolete by a “new” revelation from G’d.
* Torah was intended for everyone, but it was given to Israel for safe-keeping and commentary.
* Jesus isn’t important to Christianity. Actually he limits it, because the religion of Jesus (idolatry of a man) obscures the Torah.
* The New Testament, Christian apocrypha, etc. do not represent a new revelation from G’d, but exist as commentary, history, etc. within the Christian civilization as it attempts to understand G’d’s revelation (from the Gentile perspective, and without the aid of the rabbis and sages of Israel).
etc.
Just some thoughts.
R.
Michael,
I had to sleep on it before I tried to tackle the question of Christian dishonesty.
It’s not an intentional dishonesty, because Christians believe that they are doing G-d’s will by worshipping Jesus. So, they aren’t deceiving anyone outright, but their false assumptions are just that: unfounded assumptions that don’t get to the heart of the matter of what G-d wants and expects from people.
Christians assume that salvation can come only from an external event (Jesus). They justify this by making the claim that G-d prefers sacrifices and that the ultimate sacrifice for sin is Jesus, as the fleshly incarnation of G-d Himself.
Shouldn’t it be more correct to say that the human race is capable of obtaining for itself mercy by merely asking G-d for forgiveness? If He sees into every heart, surely this is how things are done in terms of salvation.
Orthodox Christianity is directly opposed to the idea that G-d called the world on the sixth day, “very good.” G-d is unchanging, so the world must still be “very good.” The so-called Fall of Man is given too much emphasis here, and Adam becomes the strawman to Jesus. The goodness of the mythical first man, pronounced by G-d to all following generations of mankind, is now only applied to the mythical Christ.
Or, basically, the traditional Christian account of Adam’s sin, a minor event at best, makes G-d into an inept Creator. G-d’s only choice is to take on flesh and blood, thereby robbing Himself of His divinity (because G-d is not anything physical), and die the death of a common criminal. The resurrection is made into a towering moment, but the idea of a sacrifice is that the sacrifice stays dead- and what greater sacrifice would G-d have for His fallen human children than to die Himself for them? Three days later, however, Jesus pops out of the grave- sort of defeating the idea of a divine sacrifice for human evil. Then the issue is confused by saying that Jesus is not G-d per se, but the Son of God, only begotten, but that he is equal to G-d the Father and was intended to die from the beginning of the world to defeat Satan (who hardly appears in Torah), rise from the dead…..
That’s dishonesty, doctrinal dishonesty. Christianity is being dishonest with itself because its doctrines don’t make a lick of sense in light of common sense (much from a Torah perspective).
Robert/Michael,
If you go to my answer posted in “Where do I belong?” you will find that I have given my point-of-view on some of the points you’ve brought up here. I won’t repeat them for space.
I do want to deal with the outreach idea..
Yes, the Christians have played and will play a central part. There are prophecies that haven’t been fulfilled and when they do, they will need all the help they can get. They will be caught in the crossroads trying to make sense of it all.
Robert, this is a good idea. You and I both know that there are many divergent views within Christianity. Not all followers of Jesus are of one mind on certain isues. Where as, for the most part, followers of the Torah are of one mind on who G’d isn’t. This would include some of those that don’t see Jesus as G’d, but still have a need for him.
Now, the idea of Noachidism. Should there be an alternative to Christianity? The answer is that there has been one the entire time; Torah.
I think this would be an incorrect term to use. We don’t want anyone to have this view. What I mean is that the only view is that these laws are for all of humanity and are Torah based; hence, we don’t title this in any way. It’s simply known as the Torah way for humanity. Now, the Seven are but the begining, so we have to consider what that means.. It means, in my opinion, that we are just following the teachings, that, the family of Noachides known as “Jews”, are already following. Those who are truly observant keep these daily. That should be our first effort and it is for all of humanity.
Now, from the rest of the laws that they keep, we have access to implementing certain ones into our daily lives, when ready to go further. At that point, we are not just keeping the Seven. So, the term is not accurate because it would be limiting.
Christianity does have the Seven Laws as part of their moral teachings. They, therefore, would only need clarity of what these are. The issue is whether they are willing to accept that they must take these upon their selves or not. As you very well know, because of the doctrine of the blood sacrifice, which the Torah doesn’t support, many will have a bit of a time understanding how important these are for our connection with HaShem. They only see them as commentary and Jesus’ sacrifice as the main point to focus on. Even those who don’t see Jesus as G’d do see him as the sacrifice that the NT portrays.
I agree, for the most part, on your points above; however, the Church fathers did have access to the Rabbis and Sages of Israel. They were influenced by what parts they accepted and what parts they didn’t. People don’t like to hear this, but what Christianity became was an outcome of incorrect “kabalistic/mystical/philosophical” understanding as well as inability to accept the oral traditions that were all to well known to them. Jesus spoke and kept the oral Law in many accounts in the NT. Instead, they developed their own “mystical/philosophical” ideas and their own oral tradition. The Gospel of John is a perfect example of this.
We can love Christians all day long; however, when it comes to sharing our thoughts on the Seven Laws and the acceptance of the Torah for all of humanity, accordingly, they tend to cringe heavily. It means giving up Jesus’ sacrifice for their sins and taking up responsibility for their sins. He is their Messiah, how do they let go of their Messiah? A better question is, what will they do when they don’t see their Messiah or he shows up as the one who will try to do away with the Nation of Israel forever?
Again, yes, we need to try and reach those Christians that don’t think of Jesus as G’d, but that will only happen if they are willing to accept that the Torah has a way for Gentiles to start and go from there.
As for certain Jewish Messianic groups, they just need to get back to Torah, period. They, too, will need help acknowledging their errors. Those of the Children of Israel have to focus on them as well. One of my favorite Rabbis to read from recently said that (paraphrased) it’s going to take a personal effort on behalf of the members of the Nation of Israel to come correct and back to the true teachigns of Torah. It’s almost as though he knows that time is almost up and those who haven’t listened yet, will not begin to listen now.
Same goes for our fellow Gentiles. We can tell them all day long, but those who don’t want to listen will beget their outcome accordingly. They will, sooner or later, have to deal with the Truth and, depending on their reaction to it, they will determine their outcome.
For now, the best way is to keep studying and putting forth insights that we learn so that we can try to make clear the Seven Laws to ourselves and to others. If anyone wants to start passing tracts on windshields and the like, that is ok too, in my opinion. There’s nothing more important than letting people know that G’d (from Torah) is the only G’d and that the Messiah has not come yet because other parts of the prophecies have not come true yet before he can come. However, we must be compassionate in our words so that we show that it is from the Compassionate side of G’d and not an invention of humanity. If we only talk from the Judge side of G’d then we will make them not want to hear.
With my father, I’ve learned that full-hearted Christians will only listen to so much and then they will give you the old “I believe by faith”. I asked him, “if the NT says that the OT gives prophecy of Jesus and, when you go look at the passage it quotes, it doesn’t, then, how do you rectify that? He honestly said that it didn’t matter if it didn’t say it because it says it in the NT. My mother, however, she wants to read the OT now because she is curious to know why I’m so sure of what the Hebrew text really says in contrast to what Christianity says the Hebrew text says. From her Spanish version to my KJV, there are divergencies in the text. I think she is realizing that there is something missing just from showing her what the text says between my KJV and her Spanish version bible. I told her, how much more is it off from the original Hebrew language, including my KJV.
From her I’ve learned that only those who truly seek to know more are the ones that will be willing to listen. Finding those is starting to become a bit easier, but it’s still not at a level where we can initiate contact with them. They will have to come to the Children of Israel or maybe even us, then, we can help them on a personal basis.. I hope this all makes sense.
Shalom,
Hiram
Hiram,
The lesson I learned is this: if you’re going to claim the Torah as the basis for your belief, you should know what the Torah contains and what it says is proper for religious belief.
Most mainstream Christians ignore this, and focus instead on what they want to believe in a man who has little actual appeal outside of the cult of personality that’s grown up around him over the last 2,000 years. Muslims have at least come up with an entirely new book that can stand on its own; the orthodox Christian religion stands or falls on the Torah, which shows itself that Jesus cannot be what the Christians think he is. These Christians would be better off casting off the Torah like Islam has done, and sever all ties with Judaism (which is what they more or less have done).
Now, the open-minded Christians are in a bit of a bind, because they don’t really see Jesus as the be all and end all of religion. They might view Jesus as a good teacher or whatever, but they’re not Christians from the perspective of the orthodox. They kind of feel pressed to accept what Jews and Noahides obviously see, that the truth of Christianity is a half-truth at best. G-d doesn’t work the way they were told, and this is something that even an obvious religious skeptic like a Deist can say. People might not know what G-d is, but they can know what He is not. So, when G-d says that He is not a man or a son of man (Num. 23:19), we can be pretty certain He means what He says (or He is not G-d, who is always truthful).
The text of Num. 23:19, quoting from my English translation of the Latin vulgate, is this:
“God is not a man, that he should lie, nor is the son of man, that he should be changed.”
We learn there that:
1) G-d is not a man or a son of man.
2) G-d does not lie.
3) G-d does not change.
Here’s a a simple syllogism, that the Greeks loved:
G-d does not change.
Men change.
Therefore, G-d is not a man.
Another:
Men lie.
G-d does not lie.
Therefore, G-d is not a man.
I don’t know how much more simple I can state that, but Christians seem to miss the point. So, if G-d does not lie, when He says that He is not a man or a son of man, we can trust His words. There’s no beating around the bush on that, and any attempts to find a loophole will only result in the obvious: G-d is invalidated because He is made into a liar, and therefore such an attempt at circumnavigating the obvious is error and false doctrine.
So much for Christian belief in the divinity of Jesus.
R.
hi, guys. i want very much to jump into this discussion, but i am short on sleep and time, so i gotta hold off. actually, though, it looks (from my admittedly cursory run-through) that you’ve covered all the important points….or at least, most of them. you are saying, in more depth and with more scholarship, what i said in the blog about supporting israel. and, michael, i am passionate about God, although i don’t feel the same fire about noachism. part of that lack of fire may be that i have walked this path for a while….it’s a good, steady glow, but not a blaze! also, where i am, lacking any community but online, there’s little to get worked up over….it’s hard to have a party when nobody shows up for the cake and ice cream.
i will read your posts more thoroughly later, but i go to work early and stay late (i’m a counselor at job corps) and i am about to crash……
later, guys. some really good thinking going on here!
andrea
Andrea,
One thing that people have to realize is that not everyone can be as passionate about religion as the most devout. Their are saints, laymen, and skeptics for a reason.
An insincere or forced attempt to follow a religious path is an invitation to disaster because God doesn’t want us to take upon ourselves more than we can spiritually handle or are ready to face.
In any congregation you’ll have the real zealots who are on fire for God and the Bible, those inbetween, and those who are religious in name only or who are lapsed in their faith.
R.
Andrea/Robert,
Andrea: I’m glad that you are with us. You have some great input and we always want to hear from you.
I think that you have also agreed, as I do, that we shouldn’t label it noahism. I think the issue is how we get a connection with HaShem based on the accounts of the Torah and the application of the Seven laws in our lives. You see, when you actually start gaining that connection with the laws, which yields a connection with Hashem, the laws almost disappear.
Let me explain. What I mean is that they are so much a part of you, that you become one with them. The effort is as if it is effortless. Do you understand what I’m trying to say?
Robert: I agree that everyone has to start at the level they can handle, but that we don’t stay stagnant in one place. That’s how we grow and attain more wisdom.
The issue of the Torah is that by studying it you learn more insights that are not written in the text, but is depicted philosophically behind the text. Know what I mean? The term religion is very misleading. The issue is about connecting with our Creator through, not physical, but study of His words as Proverbs 2 shows us… As far as attaining Truths, we can study many different avenues that contain Truth, but as the Psalmist said, “the Torah, the Truth”…
The Laws are the stepping stone for the ascension of the soul in order to connect with HaShem. If we fail to attempt the journey into that connection, then, we remain in one plane (philosophically). For some this is ok, and for others, it’s not enough. I just hope everyone is willing to make the effort to learn the lessons that are available for us.
hi, again. i have now had a chance to read all the posts carefully, and i think we have some real “growing” in progress. as i have posted elsewhere, my journey began in earnest when my sister asked me, “what would it do to your faith if you found out that jesus was just a man?” however, i think my journey REALLY started when i was a wee girl, watching a godly grandmother and her equally godly daughter (my precious mother, of course!) live day to day. so, hiram, your comment about the biblical laws almost becoming invisible when you make the connection to God really rings true to my experience.
however, robert’s experience of being a christian (as opposed to a Christian) is also very close to my own place in this puzzle. i cannot call myself a christian, but i do follow the religion of jesus (as opposed to the religion about jesus), as i understand it.
i think i said in the earlier blogs…this business of torah observant b’nai noah is trickier than torah observant judaism. we are supposed to use our educated, trained intelligence to figure out the finer points of living. the broad guidelines are very clear….the rest is up to us, considering our circumstances and our abilities. orthodox judaism is extremely structured, in my opinion. the b’nai noah path is supposed to be accessible to all humans, and is much more “freestyle.” it is rich and complex….but, it isn’t COMPLICATED.
like robert, i find much of value in my old comfortable “christian” slippers. but, everything of value is based on Torah. once i learned that the person i knew as jesus didn’t fit the Torah mold, much of christianity’s hold on me weakened.
it seems “elementary, my dear” that we have to grow beyond our comfort zones. even the christian scriptures say to “study to show thyself approved.” they also speak of growing “from glory to glory,” ascending to greater holiness in communion with God.
i hear all of us saying that we are busy growing. we’re trying to understand, trying to see what fits us, trying to discover what resonates in our own hearts. as long as Torah is our textbook, and we stay humble with each other and our God, we won’t go seriously wrong.
michael, hiram, robert…and all you others who are reading this but not posting, i treasure you. i am thankful that God led me to this juncture, and that He put you into my life, because you challenge me to THINK. you challenge me to stretch past mere lazy comfort, and figure out what i really believe. you challenge me to be honest with myself and with God (as if i could fool Him anyway), and to share my experience with others.
michael, i have heard you anguish over how to reach the world with this message. my friend, you are doing it. you and jack and rabbi michael are doing it….you are making it available, you are posting and prodding and challenging. you are praying, you are a walking advertisement for what you believe. that is your job…and i think all of us participating in this blog, and those who are reading but not posting, are DOING IT.
there is a lovely verse that kind of addresses this very thought. it goes like this……”He who sows in tears shall reap with songs of joy. Though he goes along weeping, carrying the seedbag, he shall come back with songs of joy, carrying his sheaves.” (Psalms 126:5-6)
it is our business to sow the seeds, and to try to prepare the ground. (which you so aptly pointed out needs to start with the “golden rule.”)
here in the mountains of western north carolina, it is beginning to be spring. daffodils and forsythia laugh in the sunshine, nodding their yellow heads with every breeze. crocuses poke through the crusty patches of lingering snow, their gaudy colors bravely shouting that winter is on the run. peeper frogs serenade us in their determination to begin a new generation of frogs….in reckless defiance of late frosts and hungry predators.
God Himself promised, in the covenant we proclaim, that “So long as the earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease.”
His promises stand. the work is ours, our chance to redeem a few sparks, to participate in tikkun olam. but…and this is the most important thing to remember….the harvest is His alone. He produces it, from our hard work, or someone else’s, and sometimes IN SPITE of our work!
just keep on keepin’ on…..that’s why we are here, blogging to each other, sharing our questions and our thoughts. our prayers and common goals sustain us, and we are bonded with a love of the Creator that transcends whatever we call ourselves.
i love you guys. thaks for being there.
I don’t have anything against Jesus, but if I wanted to worship a godman, I could choose Hercules or Asculapius, for example. A godman isn’t anything new from a theological standpoint, nor is a dying and rising savior. The ancient pagans were positively in love with this concept.
I don’t blame the Christians anymore than I blame the ancients, because people need someone to identify with, and who better to identify with than a loving godman who died for your salvation?
However, the Supreme God is too remote, too faceless, so along comes His “son” to save you. A pagan concept of this was the god Dionysius, the son of Zeus, the ruler of heaven in the Greek myths. The Jesus story is almost identical, save that the hero is a Hebrew.
Once that sunk in, that the Jesus tale was liberally borrowed from the myths (and the myths themselves forgotten, ignored, or regarded as tales about demons and devils by the Christians) and that Christian doctrine is contrary to the true meaning and spirit of the Bible, my entire view of Christianity took on a new dimension. At first I was outraged. Then, I was blased. Now, I am accepting of it.
I have the Christian Bible (several versions, from the KJV to an English copy of the Vulgate), I own the Torah (Hertz and JPS). I own a lot of other books, too. I feel that G-d wants me to know a lot about different beliefs because He wants me to be able to make this knowledge available to others. You might say that I have a polytheistic opinion of religious study, because being open-minded and knowledgeable, even minutely, about religion is crucial when trying to put G-d into a more appropriate context.
I believe in One G-d, but how He acts within the world is a thing that I am not ready to make any guesses about (other than the Bible’s descriptions of His activities with the Patriarchs and the Children of Israel). All that I can do is present my observations.
R.
I WISH I were Andrea’s “walking advertisement for Torah.” To Hiram, please feel free to quote: If you seek it as silver, and search for it as hidden treasures, then shall you understand the fear of HaShem, and find the knowledge of G’d. . . for HaShem giveth wisdom. . . .”
Incidentally, I love the way that you and other Noahides, who come from Christian backgrounds, love and use the Bible. . .
(Orthodox Israel reads through all of the Five Books of Torah every year, along with the year’s assigned readings from Scripture. That includes Esther, Ruth, Koheles/Ecclesiastes and Jonah. But I can’t remember the last time I got into Proverbs, for instance. We don’t pay enough attention to the whole Scripture - the whole Tanach
One of the ways that Noahides serve G’d is by reminding Israel of the greatness of the Bible. Israel seems to really need Noahides to fulfill this function. But what could be more natural? Noahides who come to Torah tend to do so at least partly because of the Bible. So Noahides naturally tend make Israel more Bible-conscious. This appears to be a very basic part of the larger System.)
In the next newsletter I want to emphasize the metaphor of revolution - I want to stress the revolutionary nature of this Bible, the Torah, Israel, and Noah’s Laws. It’s like Abraham, “from the other side.” It’s always revolutionary, it’s always at odds with the ways of the world, always upsetting and always making someone mad. . .
It opposes torture, government law-breaking, bad government, weak government, and excessive punishment. It presents an ideal of a society that lends and doesn’t have to borrow. It opposes abortion, within certain parameters, but only within those parameters. It opposes homosexuality, within certain parameters, but only within those parameters - it isn’t “homophobic” at all. It opposes every kind of thievery - including some kinds which aren’t universally recognized as constituting thievery. It always requires us to recognize the human being in each other.
G’d-consciousness is what this revolution is all about. As the revolution makes us more conscious of G’d, it also makes us more conscious that many of the things that our fellows say about G’d are false and harmful. That doesn’t mean that we have to act badly towards our fellows. It does mean that we, like Abraham, come from “the other side,” in a sense. We are carriers of an opposing ideology, an ideology and an awareness that’s not just foreign but, to some extent, inherently antagonistic to the hearfelt beliefs of others.
So long as we keep faith with G’d and Torah, so long as the world hasn’t somehow been redeemed, we are revolutionaries.
Andrea/Robert/Michael,
Andrea: I agree with your statements. Michael or Jack would have better words for this, but I’d like to paraphrase; “When Adam was given the one commandment (idolatry) he was supposed to figure out the rest”… I understand that these are the words of the Sages. They mean that Adam (we) had to learn to search and seek understanding. We, as you said, do this by studying and going further than just our comfort zones. Don’t get me wrong, I know that not everyone is ready for that. All I’m saying is that the more you study the easier it gets. I’ll tell you what you told us, “keep on keeping on”.
Robert: The old KJV is my friend. I’ve learned and continue to learn using the KJV and my Chumash and other books that I have available to me. I also study the scholarly opinions to be better prepared on my understanding of the Torah. The Torah is not only the Law of G’d for Israel. It is also a telling of the history of humanity in G-d’s plan. So, being a Torah Noachide is simply someone who truly agrees with what is in the Torah and knows that G’d gave it to us through Moses, so we can have a guideline to follow. The Torah teaches science, math, psychology, physics and on and on… The Torah is not limited, in my opinion, and that’s why some scientists and scholars are finding it an authority no matter how many of them choose to ignore it.
Michael: I agree 100%. Thanks for the quote. I tend to get longwinded, so I think that I have to save space by giving the reference of the passage only. I’ll do better at actually quoting.
Robert and Andrea (and anyone like them) are truly exeptional people. They are not, by any standards, truly comparable to what we know as Christians.
I think you guys are doing fine. Keep studying and any issues you may have a hard time with, you will see an answer. If we (by “we” I actually mean my teacher (Jack) and Michael and R. Katz, since I would pose any questions to my teacher after giving him my opinion) can help in any way at all, even if it’s just listening, don’t hesitate to talk to us and ask. I know that we can never have all the answers, but as we get closer and become friends, we get to come closer towards those answers. I know that I have a lot of questions and issues that I’m still trying to understand. I know that HaShem will clarify all in it’s due time…
I regard the Bible as both literature and as something more, like Hiram says it’s the divine plan in a written form and tied up with the life’s story of a single nation, which really is a microcosm of all nations. There’s a reason that the Jews have gotten around: to take that wonderful Bible with them to the rest of the world.
The Bible doesn’t teach us what we don’t already know. That’s what’s so great about it, because G-d’s revelation agrees completely with what we can figure out by ourselves (usually with a lot of effort).
R.
Greetings all, I’m new here, just found out about B’nai Noah the other day. I’ve been reading like crazy and trying to take it all in, so I’m definitely not as far along in this as all of you, but still I wanted to share a couple thoughts….
why the emphasis on evangelism? This seems like a distinctly Christian thing to me, with the Christian “great commission” and all. One of the things that I find so attractive about Jewish spirituality is that it’s not about everyone else, or anyone else, it’s about what’s between you and G’d. There is a great deal of breathing space in that.
I was raised fundamentalist, charismatic, evangelical Christian and it was a very destructive force in my life. I broke with all that many years ago, but it is only now that I’ve been able to read my bible again, or try to approach G’d again.
If you want to reach out to people, you could try offering healing support to those who’ve been damaged by Christianity — sans the evangelism, otherwise its just christianity all over again. For me, B’nai Noah seems like a safe spiritual space where I can bring G’d and the bible back into my life without having to check my sanity at the door. Surely I am not the only one… I’ll bet there are a lot of people out there who would be deeply grateful to discover a way to approach G’d directly — without any mediator, without all the politcal baggage of Evangelicalism, and without the weight of Armageddon bearing down on their souls. I know I certainly am.
Thanks much,
-Paula
Paula,
Welcome!
Education, not evangelism. Israel doesn’t have a mandate from G-d to convert people, but it does have a mandate to get the Word out to the rest of the world. The rabbinic stories present Abraham as gaining converts to monotheism, so the idea of evangelism shouldn’t just be confined to Christianity. It’s not like anyone is being asked to undergo circumcision and immersion in the mikvah (of course that option exists).
The world has heard for 2,000 years that Judaism was just the opening act for Jesus, and no one has really listened to what the Jews have to say on that particular subject. Christians like to ask, “Why did the Jews reject Jesus?” There’s nothing in the Torah at all that says they were ever under any obligations to accept him, for anything. They’re just giving an honest deposition, and setting the record straight. But, they need our help to be able to do this.
R.
I’d like to offer healing support to damaged souls. If there’s a real need, if we could actually help, we could assemble a rapid response team.
It’s true that, basically, all we’re talking about is spiritual sanity. But it’s not easy being sane in a world that isn’t, and the fact is that, even if we could theoretically figure out most of it ourselves, practically speaking, we need the Bible (the Torah) to teach us what is sane.
The religion of Sinai begins and ends with the individual in private communion with G’d, but it’s part of a movement - an eternal, worldwide, revolutionary movement - involving family, community, and ultimately all the world. Torah-based spirituality - Hebrew Revolutionary spirituality - isn’t just a private thing.
I hate to get bogged down in terminology, and people will always speak of “Judaism,” but the problem with speaking of “Judaism” is that it makes it sound like it’s just a sect - that it’s something just for Jews. It’s not. Even though the Jewish people themselves often forget this, it’s inherently, thoroughly universalistic. As Robert says, look at Abraham.
Looking through my first of the week email, I see one from a friend from college days, a strange fellow, who is Jewish but pretends not to be, who doesn’t really have any religion, attacking me for lacking proper appreciation for Jesus. I will rue my error, he prophesizes. And I will tell you, I deeply appreciate the witnessing function that Robert, especially, fulfilled for me this evening. I think he’s right: we all depend on each other; Noahides need Israel and Israel needs Noahides, for mutual support and education. It all is about education, and Israel, not being perfect, needs Noahides to remind and teach it what the Torah is really all about.
The Jews are supposed to be G’d’s special witnesses. But, again, I think Robert is right. The Jews need Noahides to witness (show the light) to both Israel and the nations.
I can’t see how this Revolution will ever succeed without that happening - and neither could the Prophets.
We don’t lose anything by talking about Jesus because we know what needs to be said about him. The Jesus worshippers lose out when they can’t get to talk about him and their entire religion stands or falls on how they can manipulate the Bible to suit their purposes. This has been done for 2,000 years, and now the world thinks that G-d’s plan was, is, and always will be about a guy who wasn’t even much to begin with (look at the lack of mention of Jesus in the non-Christian historical record from the 1st century and you’ll see what I mean). People who get upset when we mention Jesus will just have to deal with that fact; his name is bound to come up sooner or later, so it’s better to get everything out in the open and come to some basic understanding how how we view Jesus, who remains one of the biggest obstacle to true monotheism.
I like some of the things Jesus said, but that’s beside the point. A lot of people said similar things, and no one is calling a guy like Rabbi Hillel the Messiah and a divine being.
Merely setting the record straight is not the same thing as evangelizing.
R.
hi, paula! welcome to our group. you’re in good company if you have questions……
i want to encourage you to keep studying. not one of us has a corner on the truth, and i think we’ll all have some “aha!” moments when God finally puts it into terms our minds can fully comprehend. if you have read this blog, and all the previous ones, you can see that we each have some different “takes” on things. that’s one of the neat things about being b’nai noah, and you discovered it right away…..there’s a great deal of freedom to it. you can explore and learn and grow, at your speed. some, like robert and hiram and rev. jack, are scholars. michael and rabbi katz are very learned as well. others, like myself, are much more relaxed about it. (i prefer to consider myself “natural,” but i suspect my brain is just too tired to strain itself over “religion” any longer.)
there’s room for all of us. some of us were “at home” in christianity, others chafed at the whole idea from the get-go…..some of us just knew something was not completely right about it, but didn’t know exactly what, until…
as michael said, we need each other. i hope you enjoy our little gathering. for some of us, this is the only “congregation” available. for instance, i live in the mountains of western north carolina. i like to joke that here, even the catholics are southern baptists. i enjoy the give and take of this group, and i like to think that every once in a while, i say something of real worth. i look forward to your ideas.
andrea
Most of us are sojourners, like Abraham and the other Patriarchs. We have similar ideas and themes, but we express them differently. Not all of us agree in quite the same way, and this variety will probably do wonders as long as we don’t allow it to divide us in a petty manner like the Christians and Muslims.
Judaism is a term, and a fairly recent one at that. What did Abraham call himself, or Isaac, and Jacob? They called themselves Hebrews, and all of us, Jew and Noahide, are Hebrews in the same sense. Our spiritual wanderings are taking places and we can use the analogy that these three men were wandering to and fro in the physical world; they didn’t know quite where to fit in even though G-d had given them a promise of eventual prosperity for their descendants.
We’re sort of faced with a similar long-term goal, but in a better position because, unlike Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, we’re larger than a single close-knit family. We’re all a part of that collective nation which G-d promised He’d make of Abraham- we’re the fulfillment of our father Abraham’s promise from G-d, but we have to live up to our obligations to ourselves and our own posterity.
R.
Pardon me, it’s late: what are our obligations to ourselves and our own posterity?
Every text-based movement has a tendency to splinter crazily over doctrinal differences small and large.
It’s funny: as TRC notes, Maimonides came up with 13 principles of faith, while the great rabbi Yosef Albo identified just three root principles: belief in G’d, in the Divine origin of the Torah, and in ultimate reward and punishment. “He insists, very reasonably, that anyone who upholds and believes in the Law of Moses must be counted among the pious - even though that person may also hold certain erroneous theories.”
Belief or non-belief in the coming Messiah, for instance, can be counted as a branching principle - a mere dogma.
Of course, the problem with R’ Ablo’s formulation is that some people will say that any believer in the Law of Moses must also conform to certain beliefs in regard to what R’ Albo would call mere dogmas - such as belief or non-belief in the coming Messiah. Any failure to conform is regarded as proof that the non-conformist is a non-believer.
People have a way of going straight to what divides them.
Here, we can use the words of our favorite vanishing messiah:
Love the Lord your G-d with all of your heart and mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself.
Also, Rabbi Hillel:
That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn.
Of course, that’s being a bit idealistic, I guess. But, I believe in G-d and nobody is going to tell me that my way is incorrect. Conformity is opposed to true religion, which is all about the search for G-d.
Our obligations are to live well, follow G-d, and to try to leave the world a better place than when we entered it. Of course, just how to go about doing so is the problem, as you’ve pointed out…
R.
hmmm. lots of good thoughts to chew on here. i think one of the most important things in this sojourn is to remember that we ARE all children of God, none of us with ALL the wisdom and truth. there are a couple of quotes i want my life to reflect. as my grandchildren would tell you, they are my “favoritest” ones……
the first is micah 6:8-9 “He has told you, O man, what is good, and what the Lord requires of you: only to do justice and love goodness, and to walk modestly with your God; then will your name achieve wisdom.”
the second is the thundering indictment in amos, especially amos 5: 24, “But let justice well up like water; righteousness like an unfailing stream.”
i want my epitaph to say that i was a woman who lived what she believed, known for kindness and generosity, a woman who walked with her God and yearned for Moshiach. the impressions i leave with my children and grandchildren IS my posterity, and how i treat my fellow man is the truest refection of my relationship with my Creator.
(by the way, i hope that epitaph isn’t written for MANY years!)
may you have a super day, y’all. i’m so glad we’re all here.
andrea
The only epitaph that I want is something like:
“Thou too art mortal.” (Roman proverb)
R.
Paula,
Welcome! G’d has always had a way for the non-Jew. That is what B’nai Noach started with and will continue to grow with.
When it comes to personal growth, the Torah encourages it in the form of “personal” correction. When it comes to society, it deals with laws that punish the actions of an individual. The hopes, so it seems to me, of the Torah, and its giver, is that each individual will develope a personal correction that will yield a better society. On this respect, the Torah serves both the “private” as well as the “public” lifestyle of an individual.
We gain “spiritual” insight that can be translated into the physical world around us. The main point being driven; connecting with our Creator.
I’m glad for your findings. If you have any questions, what so ever, please, don’t hesitate to ask. We are all here to help each other as much as we can.
As for the “evangelism” part, it’s not a matter of evangelism as taught in Christianity. It’s about putting out correct teachings about what the “OT” really says. The fact still remains that only the ideology behind Christianity is what has infected the translations of the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh). That is what needs to be corrected. Once this is done, then, can everyone be on the same page.
Be well and welcome to the group,
Hiram
Christianity doesn’t say anything new. I’ve been doing a study of Egyptian religion lately, and I can say for certain that the ancient Egyptians had very similar beliefs to the Christians, thousands of years before Jesus lived and died. I’ve encountered some authors who state very clearly that the ancient Egyptians, in the beginning, were a monotheistic people but that this religion became corrupted with polytheism because the only ones who knew that there was actually One G-d were the educated priests, who apparently didn’t feel like sharing this knowledge with the common folk of the land.
So, what does this say to me? Common sense says that there can be only a single divine reality that exists. Anything more than one will be a multiplicity of divine wills, and this is contrary to the idea that “G-d is One” or “I am,” when G-d reiterates His exclusive self-existence to Moses at the Horeb event. That’s pretty much the sum and scope of the Torah, “God is the One” who is self-existent, self-generated, et cetera.
Some of the passages from the writings of Egyptian religion has some god or another claiming to be self-created, so the idea of an eternal Being who creates Himself from Himself is, it seems, not unique to Israel. However, Torah presents that Being, who existed as a hypothetical creator to the Egyptians, confirming directly this position to Moses. There is no speculation in what G-d said to Moses, and there should be no speculation or uncertainty in a religion that bases itself upon the teachings of Moses. This is the error of Christianity, which confuses common sense lessons that even the pagan Egyptians seemed to understand to some extent.
Monotheism is essentually a natural religion, but the Torah is simply redacting and clarifying the natural laws of G-d for the benefit of man. Any Torah-centered religion shouldn’t twist and turn the obvious (i.e. redefining the Torah to agree with some bogus doctrine like original sin or substitutionary atonement). I’ve realized that polytheism served a function in the religious education of mankind, but there’s no longer any need for polytheistic speculation and cultism. We’ve got this Torah, but most of us don’t want to live up to it.
R.
Just a bit more…
I’m really not out to bash Christians or Christianity, but it’d be nice to see the Christians do a little bit more thinking about their religion. Christianity has nothing to do with Judaism at all, so they’d be better off cutting the Bible in half and using only the New Testament and its associated writings from the Church Fathers. The morals of the Torah/Old Testament are common sensical, and many moral systems from around the world have almost identical codes of behavior. So, what’s so special about the Torah? It’s addressed to the Israelites/Jews, as a legal system for their nation. Sure, non-Jews can take advantage in the Torah and live a Torah lifestyle as Noahides, but if you aren’t going to follow what the Torah says, why claim it at all? That’s the problem with the Christians, they want the Torah but they aren’t willing to live up to what it says for its followers to do. I’d say this, that Buddhists and Hindus are probably more true to God’s plans than Christians. Buddhists and Hindus follow their own paths, which do not make use of the Torah, but the Christians have to have it their way by re-defining what the Torah says. Buddhism is, in its purest form, a non-theistic philosophy that says nothing positive or negative about God. Hinduism is a collection of religions, but most Hindus will attest to the existence of the Supreme God. Hindus associate their idols with the Supreme God, much like the Christians do with Jesus. This is done without Torah, which the Christians have, but mostly ignore out of a desire to worship at the asherah pole of Jesus. Buddhists, Hindus, and others aren’t guilty of breaking Torah (which they don’t possess/follow and can’t be judged by because of this), but the Christians are. So, who’s wrong?
I don’t begrudge anyone who wants to worship a manlike god, but common sense should apply if you’re going to cite the Bible as the basis for this religion. God says in Torah that He is not a man, nor a son of man, etc. But, Christians say the opposite. So, are we to assume that God is a liar or that He changed His mind (when God cannot lie or change)? Are we to assume that the Nameless God now has a name for sure? A Jewish name of all things, as if the Jews weren’t the most obstinate haters of physical representations of God…
I don’t know all that there is to know about God, but I’m certain that God meant what He said in the Bible when He denied being a man. I don’t want to bash the devotion of Christians, but they have to realize that they aren’t worshipping the God of Israel when they worship Jesus.
Shalom All,
I have been giving a bit of thought recently as to why Noahides do not seem to be able to get enthusiastic about the Noahide Laws, so when I saw what Andrea wrote above it struck a chord with me.
Andrea wrote: “… what i said in the blog about supporting israel. and, michael, i am passionate about God, although i don’t feel the same fire about noachism. part of that lack of fire may be that i have walked this path for a while….it’s a good, steady glow, but not a blaze! also, where i am, lacking any community but online, there’s little to get worked up over….it’s hard to have a party when nobody shows up for the cake and ice cream.”
All religions except the Noahide Laws have an appeal to the human desire for ‘ritual’ in some way. There is no ‘Noahide ritual’, just long and at times hard slogging to give up those ‘rituals’ which are not appropriate any more for us. We have no ‘holidays’ of our own, we are often told that we cannot observe this or that thing from Judaism, so the Noahide Laws appear to be dry and flavourless.
There are exceptions, we may keep Purim, and some holidays such as Succot (Feast of Tabernacles) and Chanukah. But many of the bnai Noah are confused about what is and is not permitted to us, and we frequently receive contradictory advice. All these things tend to confuse new Noahides. Especially those who come from religious backgrounds which have a lot of ritual practices. Leaving an empty place within for those who suffer ‘culture shock’ as a result.
We need to focus our energies on trying to build Noahide communities, and that means we have to reach out to the communities around us in some way, that takes imagination how can we interest other people in becoming Noahides? Suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
We do have a venue for discussion on the Noahide email groups which seem to have been abandoned recently. There are currently 241 members on the Noahides@yahoogroups.com group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/noahides/ who are inactive right now, some of those are newbies and looking for discussion which just isn’t happening recently. If we don’t use the forums provided to help us meet other members of the Noahide community how can we grow?
If we do not exhibit any enthusiasm for the growth of the international Noahide community then how can we expect others to have any?
So why don’t we discuss issues about how to correctly observe the Noahide Laws instead of rehashing the problems in other religions?
Shalom,
Frances (Rachav)
You get a lot of emotion, real, deep, heartfelt emotion, when Noahides come up against the crimes that the enemies of Israel commit against Israel. I’ve seen a lot of this. They identify with Israel and they tend to see, even when many Jews, and certainly many others, “progressive people,” don’t “get it,” which side is which. BN do get it, usually: in a confusing world, they can tell which side is right and which side isn’t, which side is blessed and which side deserves cursing. They’re not confused at all and that’s something remarkable and very praiseworthy.
As for Noahides performing worship services or conducting religious rituals based on Hebrew teachings, that sometimes comes across as being forced or insincere. There’s an uncertainty, a tentativeness, and - often - a feeling that people are holding back.
I’ve never seen a Noahide siddur, or prayerbook, that I liked. I’ve seen some beautiful prayers written for Noahides, usually by Jewish scholars, but I don’t have the sense that they are often used. I don’t think that Noahides particularly want them. As far as I know, Noahides usually make up their own prayers, borrowing here and there from Israel’s, or modifying their old prayers to make them pleasing to G’d. This seems to happen mostly at the family or individual level, though.
We haven’t seen any large or even moderately good sized Noahide communities come into being. The largest and most wholesome Noahide community that I know of is Jack Saunders’s. There’s supposed to be one in Israel but, if there is, it’s not thriving.
I’ve often heard Noahides express this sentiment: “we’ve freed ourselves from one fundamentalism; we don’t want to fall into another.”
The other evening at the Pesach seder table, the man across from me, a black hatted Jewish scholar with a long white beard and sidelocks, expressed surprise that a Noahide even had the right to study Torah.
He also expressed surprise upon hearing the teaching that any human being who truly believes in HaShem is obligated to keep shabbot/shabbos, the seventh-day sabbath. Which reminds me, I promised to get him a copy of Rainbow Covenant. . .
MD
Frances,
I see your point and some of us are actually working on getting this information on a level of forum study or smaller lessons of each principle, prayers, etc.
I’m even helping Adam Penrod with the translation of the Amidah into Spanish. Trust me; that’s not easy if you want to embody what is being said and the intention that one is supposed to have when going through it.
The truth of it is that it has taken time, outside of the book, for others to come into the spectrum of publishing their thoughts, at least, making them be known by places as these blogs and the forums you listed. I think that if every available teacher in each of the groups took to devide the task, so that it can be shared evenly, on each of the Laws, then, the “newbies” will have more material to study.
Now, on the issues of the other religions, it seems to me, that the reason we spend the time talking about them is because that is the first step that the newbies tend to have to deal with. The first thing they want to do is know the reasons why they should accept that the Torah and the Laws are G-d’s way for us and not the old way they had; Christians being a good example.
These issues are going to be the most burdensome issues for the newbies. Once they have a clear outlook on things, then, they can move on. To throw them straight into the “laws” is going to definately shock them.
However, if you teach them why they need to keep these laws, because they were given by G’d, they understand the importance. Secondly, the way to help them see the “why” starts out by clarifying their earlier incorrect ideas given by their previous life journey about the Torah and, most importantly, G’d.
So yes, we need to get to talking about the laws and how to keep them; however, not at the expence of the progression that the newbies have to go through in order to not let their “fire” die out.
On another note to Michael’s point; do the Children of Israel realize how valuable we are to them? I mean, if they had our help to spread the correct ideas and understandings of the Torah, from their Mesora, do they know that we would be able to help spread that knowledge even faster if they helped us in our studies and stopped forgetting where they came from?
I don’t mean this in disrespect; I only mean to emphasize the necesity for them to meet us, truly monotheistic Noahides that have acknowledged the Truth and Authority of HaShem in our lives, half-way and not be so stubborn.
They will not assimilate by teaching us correct Torah and they will always be seen by us as the authority of their Mesora.
How many other members of the Nations are willing to come to them and ask them specific questions about the Torah when many think they have nothing to offer? We, however, come in sincerity and don’t want to take their spot in any form or way. We just want to know the Truth of the Torah and HaShem. We also want others to know that Truth. IF we share that Truth and people choose to ignore it, that falls on them. Yes, there have been many that started in the right path and strayed, but that is not our fault and we have learned from their mistakes. Anyone that has any common sense will keep to the purity of the Torah and the acceptance of the Children of Israel in their role. Anyone that goes outside of that is loosing focus of the Truth. They’ll have to answer to G’d for that.
Is it too much to ask for proper teaching? If so, then how are they to be a “light unto the nations”?
Shabbat Shalom,
Hiram- (ps. I don’t include those who are helping us. I’m only talking of those who speak like the man in your example)
We have had some strange experiences with Noahides historically - and by historically, I include my own experiences over the last 15 or 20 years or so. It’s been weird. People turning on us overnight, denouncing us internationally, accusing us of gross doctrinal errors, or not living up to their expectations that we ourselves should be living Torahs. . .
Regarding the different Noahides prayerbooks/siddurim that have popped up over the years, one thing I’ve seen in them is that they’ve all been prescriptive: people telling others how to pray and what to do. You get the sense, looking at the things themselves, that nobody has ever used them or will ever use them. They’ve all been obviously bad - although they’ve often had at least a few pretty good prayers in them.
I suggest that, instead of asking Israel at large to help Noahides learn Torah, or help Jews learn about Noah’s Laws, Noahides - and Jews - should try to focus their efforts at introducing the world to the brilliance of the Torah and the greatness of HaShem through this foundation. That’s what we’re here for.
yup…..and, since i am in an area where there is no noahide community whatsoever, and the majority of jews here are quite assimilated, i find it helpful just having this forum.
i can tell you, from first-hand experience, that it’s a struggle to be observant of ANYTHING, if you’re surrounded by others doing THEIR customary thing, which, once upon a time, was also YOUR customary thing.
in fact, one of my co-workers taught me a lesson in humility this week. she is a member of the church of God international, which is a splinter of the old world-wide church of God (headed up by herbert w. armstrong. anyone remember him?) she believes in jesus, but she is strictly sabbatarian, eats only the kosher animals, and follows the rules of God’s holy days as closely as she can. we were talking about this and that…. she joked about having to make do with regular matzah because “kosher for passover” matzah is non-existent around here. then she told me about how much discipline it takes to avoid bread and anything leavened during passover……
her level of commitment humbles me. i used to be like her! i used to care, used to be a participating member of that same “church”. now, since i moved hundreds of miles from my group, cast off all those “vestiges,” i am so ….BLAH.
so, how do i solve this dilemma? do i go to her group, which believes so closely (and yet…there still the j-man!)….. actually, i have taken, up to this point, the path of least resistance, which is ………not much.
this is one of those puzzles i am going to have to find my own solution for. but, i just wanted to let you know how precious a group like this is. michael, you have come close to despair about “how come they aren’t flocking to us?” this isn’t a mass movement…..at least not yet. but this forum, this blog, has introduced me to others who care. we’re all at different stages, our circumstances are different, but we are all here for the same purpose. that is important, and you never know who might be reading, seeing, needing just the message that you post. you JUST NEVER KNOW who God might direct to connect with you……. or who might deliver His next lesson to you!
andrea
You’re right, Michael. I wasn’t trying to stirr up anything. Just making a point on how limiting it seems to me when someone thinks this way.
I agree with your point of view on this forum or group and website. I guess I just don’t fully understand the mentality being that I’m looking from the outside in.
I just wish those individuals, whom acted in ways they shouldn’t have, would not have done so. Talk about not thinking about the effects of their actions.
Anyway, as Andrea has pointed out, we never know who’s watching or reading, so it is best that we focus on what really matters, as you mentioned.
BTW, Andrea, that commitment is not seperated from us just because we don’t need JC in our lives. Instead, since we have a more correct opinion or understanding, it should yield a stronger commitment. That’s what has been my drive. Knowing that G’d is beyond me and not limited makes Him worthy of my acceptance of His Kingship and authority in my life. Thus, yielding a stronger commitment.
I hope that makes sense.
Best wishes,
Hiram
“The other evening at the Pesach seder table, the man across from me, a black hatted Jewish scholar with a long white beard and sidelocks, expressed surprise that a Noahide even had the right to study Torah.”
If Noahides can’t study Torah, then they don’t have any business following the Noahide Laws. Being unable to study the scriptural basis for your religious beliefs is more or less akin to saying that an American citizen can’t examine the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. This is one of the charges that J-C levelled against the priestly groups, that they had knowledge of Torah but kept this knowledge from the less learned people in the land.
IIRC, I believe that Rebbe Schneerson believed that not only did Noahides have the right to study Torah by themselves, but they also had the duty to do this, as well.
Robert,
I know what you are saying, trust me. I’ve been talking to different people about this for a little bit now.
As Michael says though, we should not let those who claim this keep us from furthering our studies. At the same time; however, we are to acknowledge that the Children of Israel are called to be Priests and Teahers. So, since I’ve heard their arguments, some anyways, I think it’s just going to take us continuing our search and studies and asking as many questions as possible to get those who think this way to see the need for them to see the value of sharing the Truth of the Torah with all mankind.
It’s all good Robert. Everything in G-d’s time…
Hiram,
I realize this, that Israel has Torah for a reason and that the sages are the best ones to elucidate Torah, but there should be no question about it not being restricted to Noahides for study. Noahides don’t want to steal Torah from Israel for themselves; they want it to make their lives completel They’d be little better than just another sect of supposed Jews if they stole Torah (re: messianics et al.). I don’t blame Jews for wanting to guard Torah, but there are many eager Gentiles who want to learn about it for themselves.
Religious obfuscation is one of the reasons why Christianity has gone mad with denominalationism for the last 2,000 years (currently 25,000+ denominations!).
R.
That is what I’m saying.
The only thing that is going to help those who speak this way, though, is for us to further our study with those whom are teaching us and making sure they see our interests in our learning and showing them that we do it from the heart and not to distort.
That was my point. You and I and others are not going to go outside of what we know to be right based on Torah. We need to make sure we let those who might find it a bit strange for us to want this knowledge to see our sincerity in our continuous pursuit to study and gain the correct teachings.
When they see our understanding through, hopefully, conversation; then maybe, they will be more welcoming. That’s all I was trying to say.
Best wishes,
Hiram
Hiram,
Conversation is the best way to at least make someone aware of your position, but a person also has to be wary in speaking lest they offend someone’s delicate sensibilities. This is especially true with Christians, who are prone to regarding any “Judaizing” as an attempt to engage in the de-Jesusing of their religion. Christians have a lot to gain by learning about the Jewish and Hebrew connections of their religion, but they don’t like to hear anything that contradicts their beliefs. This is why I’ve said that they might be better of cutting the Torah off from the New Testament and re-inventing Jesus as an entirely non-Jewish figure. Anyone who studies the New Testament knows what it says, just as anyone who studies Torah knows what it says.
R.
what???? actually, i find that my christian background and my jewish background mesh nicely, to a great degree. i would not be who or what i am without both. i have studied both torah and NT, and continue to find things i didn’t know.
re-invent jesus as a non-jewish figure? cut torah off from the NT? well, that may seem easier to you, but…… i think many people forget that christianity and islam are “daughter religions”….. the most genuine thing, it seems to me, is not to cut those religions off from their roots and try to make them sink or swim on their own, but to “live and let live.” where are we obligated to unmask all religious errors? what makes jews and/or noahides so “pure” that they can stoop to the very tactics they disdain in those other groups? and, by the way, WE aren’t supposed to “de-jesus” their religion….that’s THEIR job. individually, one soul at a time, they must come to their own understanding.
just live the commandments of God, and when others ask what you believe, tell them. we don’t have to convert anyone…..
as to entirely separating NT from torah….that body of writings makes no compelling sense without the background of torah. and, if you even succeed in doing that, you lose the considerable support/foundation of many who love jews BECAUSE they are the historical people of jesus, and BECAUSE of the promise to bless those who bless Israel. that idea would tear good hearted, God-fearing, Israel supportive christians away from their moorings, and cast them into needless chaos…..
God placed every one of us where we are, and He continues to work in and through us, with our various viewpoints and backgrounds. i truly long for the time when we suddenly understand that we’re all related, all connected at a much deeper level than we have ever recognized. the spectrum of religious understanding is part of what gives humanity an interesting “texture.” this magnificent tapestry of life that God is weaving will all make sense, someday. every thread, evey knot, every variation in the weave is just exactly as it should be……..you’ll see.
andrea
Robert/Andrea,
Robert is right on the splitting of the books. Let me explain.
You see, the Tanakh being part of the the Christian Bible is what shows us its errors. Yet, in order for the Church to make its case, it used the Tanakh as a means to validate their teachings. Guess what? They messed up in doing so. Why? Because the Tanakh proves to us how Jesus is not who they claim him to be.
Now, Andrea, you also make some good points in your post. The issue is not that WE de-Jesus anyone; they have to do this on their own. And, when Christians read something that proves Jesus is not who they think he is, the first reaction is to want to distance theirselves from that. So, if the Tanakh copy they have can prove to them that Jesus is not at all in it, then they have a problem. In order to keep their Jesus, they would have to seperate the two halfs of their Bibles.
Now, I’m not saying that the Jewish way of life that is in the Tanakh and the NT are not visible. What I’m saying is that the Tanakh was and always will be seperate from the NT. The Church’s attempt to harmonize the two was wrong on their behalf. Why? Many places were changed on purpose in order to make connections that don’t exist in the Hebrew native language. This is adding and taking away from the Torah and the Prophets and the Writings.
The NT only makes a case for the story of a man whom we are trying to find through archaeology. This has not been fruitful until pretty recently and now many are trying to debunk the possibility for that as well. The NT only contains fragments of Jewish times past. It doesn’t have any right being a part of the Tanakh, though. The reason is because the NT is being seen by many as taking the place of the Covenant between G-d and Israel, because G-d did away with it, according to the teachings of the Church. This can’t be forgotten!
In your case, Andrea, you have gone past the hurdle of what to think of Jesus’ divinity. This is different. People who come from this point of view are not in the same ball-park as those who still hold to it.
The next step is whether he is the messiah or not. At this level, they have to dig deeper in order to see if the Torah and rest of Tanakh validates it.
Once you get past this point, you don’t need the NT, but for helping others understand where it lacks. In areas where there may be good insight, go see where that insight came from and you will see what one really needs to do; turn to the Tanakh for answers.
I measure everything with the same “stick” (Tanakh) to see if it holds up or not. That is why I agree on the seperation of the two halfs for those who want to keep Jesus as he is right now in their minds.
One of the early Church Fathers, Marcion, was actually known for saying the same thing. He felt that the Tanakh should not be a part of the NT Cannon. He said that the G-d of the Tanakh was not the G-d of the NT, nor the father of him. This, of course, would not suffice the Church because it would mean not having a way to try and convince the Jewish people around them into accepting the new State Religion.
Yes, Christians can become more aware of the Jewish side of things in their NT; however, this will cause them to have to either Turn to Torah/Tanakh or something else altogether.
I hope is Torah/Tanakh and not anything else…
Best wishes,
Hiram
ps. sorry for any wrong spelling…
“re-invent jesus as a non-jewish figure? cut torah off from the NT?”
Indeed; the Christians want to claim Torah but they don’t want to accept what it teaches about G-d, so they might as well just jettison anything even remotely Torahaic from Christianity and turn the religion in a new direction. Centuries have been spent trying to reconcile Torah and the New Testament, with more or less failed results because the Christian apologists have had to redact large portions of the Torah to agree with Christian doctrine.
And, honestly, Jesus Christ already exists as a figure from the myths. Pick any of the savior-gods of the life-death-rebirth variety and you’ll see what I mean… Asklepius, Attis, Herakles, Krishna, Mithras, Osiris, and so forth. The sooner someone realizes that Jesus falls under one of Jung’s archetypes (the superman), the happier they’ll be. People fixate on this man named Jesus Christ, but I can give at least half-a-dozen other examples of saviors who predate him by quite a long time.
Being a divine savior isn’t any big deal, so all of Christianity’s claims of Jesus being able to fulfill the Torah’s prophecies are worthless.
yeah, yeah….my sister (now an orthodox jew) says the same thing (that judaism and christianity are ENTIRELY separate). i don’t agree, and here’s why—
it’s been such a neat experience for me….i will read or hear something written by a rabbi, explaining a point, and boing! a passage from NT pops into mind, but now, i UNDERSTAND what it’s saying and where it’s coming from.
and, in dealing with my kids, for example….i don’t want to feel that we are on two separate planets. they are christians, and now their mom has become this renegade. if tanakh and NT are entirely incompatible, we have no common ground except our love for each other. without tanakh as part of their bible, we don’t even have the God of abraham, isaac, and jacob in common. i don’t think that NT is part of tanakh, but tanakh IS integral to NT.
apart from the authority of tanakh, how could i ever hope to help my children see that jesus, whoever he may have been, was NOT what we have been taught that he was? his whole claim to fame rests on the (misconstrued) prophecies of tanakh.
no, i now understand that i was taught error, but if NT were entirely apart from tanakh, i would never have found my way at all. it was only because the bridge was still accessible……
i am not wise enough to figure out what the answer SHOULD be. i only know how it was FOR ME. tanakh can stand alone, but the honest christian realizes that the whole crux of his religion rests (and eventually crumbles) on the authority of tanakh. there are many good people who want to know, who would come if they could only catch a glimpse that there IS something more….i cannot take away that bridge……..
andrea
Andrea,
I understand your point. You are at a different level now.
You have to realize that I’m not saying that it is wrong for these people to look to the Tanakh for information. If it wasn’t for Tanakh being there I would not have found my way out of Christianity.
What I’m saying is that we must be honest that the NT is not part of the Tanakh and that the NT serves its own purpose and agenda.
The Tanakh is seperate as Israel is seperate to the Nations.
What I have in common with my parents, which are very much Christian and I’m the renegade, is that I love G-d and, in their way, they do as well.
My father and I argue back and forth trying to make a case for our positions all the time, but the one thing he won’t do is double check me against the Tanakh because he doesn’t care what it says because the NT has already told him.
Now, your understanding is based on the fact that you are now able to read the NT from the perspective of Judaism. That doesn’t mean that the NT has its place next to the Tanakh. But, I’m not going to argue against you on this. I’m just trying to put things in its original context…
Take care and, please, don’t take any of my input personal.
Shalom,
Hiram
no worries, my friend. i take no offense to anything you have said. i fully agree with you…. the only important thing is that i have always known God, and He has always known me. my understanding of Him was not correct, and i continue, from time to time, to wrestle around with that…..but He has been the one constant feature in my life. i know my children understand that, too, and so, i know they are okay.
that’s one important difference in the mindset of judaism/bnai noah and christianity…… people who honestly love God as they understand Him, people who are searching, yearning, reaching for the truth are all going to be “okay.” like millions before me, i never understood, nor did i believe, that God would condemn people to a fiery hell just because they hadn’t “accepted jesus.”
once upon a time, i read some commentary about the NT originally being the handbook of a struggling noahide community, with many additions being made over the centuries. that makes some sense to me….. i also understand how the “establishment” would have gotten their hackles up about the words and actions credited to the nazarene……. nobody wants some little upstart challenging their authority, exposing their corruption, and doing “scandalous things” in the name of God…… there are some pretty important truths in NT, but some pretty significant errors, too. (and all of the really good stuff is directly from tanakh, anyway!)
i agree that NT doesn’t have a place next to tanakh, but i have to respect the idea that many people THINK it does. i am still learning how to disagree without being disagreeable…LOL! i think it would be a good trick if we could get christians to really THINK, fearlessly, about tanakh.
i remember how bewildered i felt. all those things that i knew from years of sunday school and personal bible study….. suddenly, i saw that the leap from tanakh to NT just didn’t match up, but i didn’t really undertand HOW it didn’t. i had to look at all those old familiar verses without the “knowledge” that “jesus had fulfilled all.” i had to be willing to see that he DIDN’T fulfill prophecy. i had to be willing to realize that, as good a guy as he may have been, (and i know the jury is still out on that), he was not who i had been taught he was. he was NOT God incarnate, he was not THE messiah, and he did not “save me from my sins.”
but, coming to that conclusion is a mighty scary proposition. what if you’re wrong, and you just turned your back on God’s only provision? what if, what if, what it…..
thanks be to God that i came to peace with that years ago. and thanks, guys, for being there, and for all your thoughts. i really value this forum we have here……
andrea
Andrea,
Yes, that is why we need to focus on making sure we put the correct information out so that people have a bit of an easier time getting answers to their questions.
Again, I fully agree with you that these people will have to come to this on their own time. We can’t get anyone to accept anything. Only those who are truly seeking will find the Truth. And, they will accept it when they have been able to overcome each individual hurdle.
Be well and Shalom,
Hiram
Robert,
Maybe you can give us a snip of those examples and comparison. I think that would help many as well.
Later,
Hiram
What sort of examples were you thinking of?
Hi Robert,
You wrote:
Pick any of the savior-gods of the life-death-rebirth variety and you’ll see what I mean… Asklepius, Attis, Herakles, Krishna, Mithras, Osiris, and so forth. The sooner someone realizes that Jesus falls under one of Jung’s archetypes (the superman), the happier they’ll be. People fixate on this man named Jesus Christ, but I can give at least half-a-dozen other examples of saviors who predate him by quite a long time.
To this I want to ask if you could just give a side by side comparison with at least two of the “half-dozen”, that, you mention, to Jesus. I think that it will help people see that it was a pre-existing and predated Jesus.
Thanks!
Jesus:
Mother was of royal lineage (David) who was impregnated by the holy spirit.
Hercules:
Mother was of royal lineage (Perseus) who was impregnated by Zeus (”heaven-father”).
Horus:
Mother was the goddess Isis. Father was Osiris, the king of the gods (and later judge of the dead and god of the resurrection/afterlife).
Jesus:
Called the Savior (Christos)
Performed miracles.
Cast out demons, etc.
Hercules:
Called the Savior (Soter)
Performed heroic deeds and made the land safe by killing monsters.
Horus:
Called the Anointed One (KRST, an Egyptian term that apparently gave rise to the Greek term Christ)
Known for battling his uncle Set/Seth (Satan), who had murdered Osiris out of jealousy for the kingship of the gods (Lucifer wanting to be G-d).
Jesus:
Died and rose from the dead.
Experienced a transfiguration.
Became a new god in heaven and is still widely worshipped.
Hercules:
Died and rose from the dead.
Experiences a transfiguration.
Became a new god in heaven and was widely worshipped.
Horus:
Died and rose from the dead.
Transfigured/identified with other Egyptian gods: Ra, the sun-god, Osiris, his father (in the same way that Jesus and HasShem are identified as one and the same), etc. Horus takes over from Osiris as the king of the gods (Jesus superimposed over HaShem).
Some of the basics between the stories of Jesus and Hercules are pretty consistent; it’s the specifics that aren’t in agreement with each other (Jesus was sexless whereas Hercules was bisexual like most Greek heroes). A little bit of study will unearth mountains of information and evidence that the Jesus story is just a retelling of older, popular beliefs.
Of all of the parallels, I honestly think that the Jesus-Horus parallel is the most likely.
Thank you very much Robert! I surely will make time to study this as well, more in depth.
Be well.
You might also want to look into the tripartite religious ideology as put forth in a thesis by Georges Dumezil. His belief was that Indo-European religions had a three-in-one sort of aspect, with:
* A sovereign, all-powerful deity (kingly aspect).
* A second deity, sometimes a war-god (and often the son of the kingly god).
* A third deity, a fertility god or goddess.
What does this sound like? The Christian trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
You can learn about this theory at Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trifunctional_hypothesis
Regarding Hercules:
Died and rose from the dead.
Experiences a transfiguration.
Became a new god in heaven and was widely worshipped.
I didn’t know all that. If I ever did, I forgot it. As for him being bisexual - I suppose. . . the thought never occurred to me.
Maybe krst comes from ancient Egyptian but I thought it was Greek or anyway Indo-European. It would have been a common trade term - olive oil was a big trade item, they probably did come up w/ a common word for it. The word crisco, I’ve been told, comes from the same source as krst. As the Hebrew moshiach means anointed and connotes oil, as in anointing oil, krst connotes oil - Jesus as moshiach, the anointed.
You’re saying that Krst also refers to Horus as the anointed? Anointed by Osiris? Osiris is the ultimate god in the Egyptian pantheon, right?
You’re also saying that this is all Karl Jung/Joseph Campbell mythic archetype stuff - peristent repetitive story themes. How about the Norsemen and the Orient, or Amerindians or Bushmen? Or Hinduism. You would expect to see these same themes there, no?
Mythology deals with archetypes, so yes, I’d expect to find similar mythical archetypes in other cultures. And, in most cases, we do.
The Norse version of JC is called Balder, a deity loved by everyone who was slain by the trickery of Loki. Balder will stay in Hel till Ragnarok, after which he’ll come return to take up Odin’s seat in the rebuilt Valhallas. Loki, for his part in Balder’s death, was chained underground and will be let loose at Ragnarok, when he’ll lead a portion of the chaotic armies against the Aesir/Vanir deities. I’d say that the death and eventual resurrection of Balder relates to the death and resurrection of JC; the chaining of Loki relates to the chaining of Satan.
The ultimate god of Egyptian religion was Ra, but he was usually regarded as a representation of the Supreme Deity’s active, creative power. The works of E.A. Wallis Budge give a good, straightforward account of the monotheistic tendencies of the ancient Egyptians:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra
Osiris was more popular, for the same reasons that JC has been popular, he is approachable and personified, whereas Ra was kind of an abstract concept. The Greeks had the same problem with Zeus (who was identified with Ra). The ancients usually regarded the lesser deities as manifestations of a Supreme Deity, which was often given a name/title that itself was sometimes culled from a mythological entity (i.e. the abstract Zeus of the philosophers as compared to the personified Zeus of the myths).
I believe that Horus was anointed by Thoth or Ptah, but I could be wrong. By the time Horus reached his majority, Osiris had already taken up residence in the Halls of Amenti (Egyptian afterlife). Horus got a load of support, being folded up with Ra himself (Re-Horakthy, “Ra who is the Horus of the Two Horizons,” rising sun and setting sun, in other words).
The neter (Egyptian “gods”) seem to have been more conceptual, at least intellectually. The Egyptian commons idol-worshipped the neter, but the educated classes of Egypt seemed to understand the idea of the Unity of the Creator, even if they expressed that belief in outwardly polytheistic terms (often done for the sake of the masses and to ensure the continuance of ma’at [cosmic order]).
The Hindus had similar beliefs to many of the Indo-European peoples. The Vedics, for example, believed that the soul of the dead underwent a journey of three days between the time of death and the arrival in heaven (=JC’s three days in the tomb and his resurrection). Interesting, huh?
I think that a lot of the religions, past and present, are pretty archetypical.
The transfiguration of Hercules takes place, in its best form (in my opinion), in Ovid’s Metamorphoses. Ovid characterized Hercules in much the same manner that Christians characterized JC; as “earth’s champion” and the friend of man and god. Pretty much standard stuff for the ancients when it came to honoring a departed hero. Josephus regarded Hercules as an historical person, living a couple of generations before Moses (although he was writing for a Roman audience it must be remembered).
Hercules sets himself out on the pyre and sets himself ablaze. His body is burnt to ash, but his spirit is taken up to heaven. Not exactly the same as JC, but the Christians had to give their own version of the archetypical dying/rising savior story.
Shalom Alechem,
I noticed the mention of the Siddur I am working on in one of your posts. I agree that many (or all) of the Siddurim for B’nei Noach that have come along are generally ignored by Noachides, and yet, funnily enough it doesn’t stop them from asking “When are we going to have a Noachide Siddur?” I think one of the largest problems is that most of the Siddurim that have come out have been either virtual copies of the voluminous Jewish Siddurim or they’ve been completely made up.
I think Noachides need a simple to use “light” Siddur. They might use that. Then again, they might not, at the very least I hope to use it and hope there are others who will find it useful. At the very least it’s been a fantastic learning experience for me.
Another issue I’ve seen in regard to the Siddurim that have been produced is that most of the Noachides who have produced them have not known anything regarding the halachah of prayer and blessings. This is important because it will impact what you will leave in the Siddur and what you will take out (if basing in anyway your Siddur on a Jewish one, and I think even if you’re just going to make one up).
Take for example blessings that contain the signal phrases “Who sanctifies us” and “Who commands us”. The Rambam says in Hilchot Berachot 11:7 that the only time that a blessing is said after the action which is blessed is in regard to a convert who has submerged himself in the mikvah. The halachah for the mikvah is to say it before going in, but a convert cannot do this because they are not Jewish. First, they must submerge and then afterward they make the blessing.
The reason for this is the blessing has the phrase “Who sanctified us” and “Who commanded us” and until the convert is finished converting (i.e. after submerging and re-emerging) he cannot say this phrase.
Knowing this it would seem that any blessings that use this terminology is forbidden for a Noachide. Of course there is currently a maklokhet about this it seems (but let’s not get into that unless you’re really curious).
Another issue is that Noachides are allowed to perform any mitzvot they desire for the sake of a reward (so long as it is done according to the halachah). However, there are certain mitzvot that by their very nature it is impossible to do them according to the halachah (halachah involving forming a minyan or zimmun).
Take for example answering ‘amen’ after another person makes a blessing (take the blessing after eating bread “Birkat HaMazon”). If we were to follow the halachah for the sake of a reward then the only time we could fulfill this mitzvah is when a Jewish male makes the blessing after the meal (it seems to me…currently). Therefore, even in public gatherings Noachides would need to read the blessings to themselves (if they desire to earn the reward for doing an extra mitzvah unless there is a Jewish man to make the blessing). They may certainly desire to just answer ‘amen’ and there is always benefit when praying with a group but they aren’t able to earn reward for performing an extra mitzvah.
Issues like these have caused us to rework the Siddur in many ways. Jack and I have discussed these problems on various occasions. I doubt most Noachides will care about these issues, but I think it’s important in order to have a relevant Siddur that provides opportunities to people who desire to fulfill extra mitzvot for the sake of a reward in the context of prayer and making blessings.
Just some thoughts to your interesting conversation.
Shalom,
Adam
Adam,
Always good to hear from you. Thank you for your information. I look forward to the final outcome of your efforts.
Shalom!
Hello all,
I’m new to this board and spent time reading each post before I responded. Please keep in mind that I am brand new to Jewish teachings, so please forgive me in advance if I say anything that offends anyone or is offensive in general. That is NOT my intention at all. :>)
I am currently a practicing Christian (and have been for 29 years) who is postively “obsessed” with Judaism. Yet I am no where near as knowledgable as you all are, but I wanted to give you a first hand opinion from a “Christian” who is seeking the truth.
My interest in Judaism began when I was reading the NT and realized that Jesus spent a lot of time in the synagogue…which made me realize Jesus was a practicing Jew. He was said to be a “righteous” person, and the standard by which that righteousness was measured had to be the Torah (The book Christianity is said to be based on). I believe in the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, yet christianity teaches virtually nothing about H-m. I agree 1,000% that Christianity has “morphed” into something entirely different than it originally was…and I’ve made it my life’s goal to find out what that was/is (Judaism perhaps? :>)).
I believe the reason Christians have not come to know the Torah as the ultimate Law is because outside of the 10 commandments (which are under attack in the U.S) we dont know ANYTHING about the book. I agree that Pastors/Preachers have taken the message and distorted it beyond recognition. The “name it and claim it” “blab it and grab it” prosperity bunch build mega churches to fill up with people, yet dont seem to care about the souls of the people in those churches.
Yes, something deep within me tells me Christians are in error when it comes to our religion, but who do we turn to for more information? I dont think our Christian pastors and preachers study the Torah/Tanakh, if they did I’m sure I would have heard that sermon at least ONCE in 29 years as a believer. I havent heard a one word.
I’m going to keep my eye on this site to learn more about Judaism and…well, what I am coming to believe is the Truth.
Jael
Jael,
Thank you for joining and welcome.
The first thing I would encourage you to do is to start by reading the Hebrew text as understood in Judaism. I have found a translation that seems to be the most accurate according to my personal research online. You can go here:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=63255
Secondly, we turn to the members of Israel for instruction. That is why they are to “be a light unto the Nations”. Also, remember that Israel is also a Nation and its members are human. Some are not standing where they are supposed to in accordance to Torah. But, then again, neither is the rest of the world.
As you have pointed out, that is what is lacking, not only in Christian circles, but also in the world in general.
The words of the Sages and the Rabbis that are available to us are where you can get answers to some of the questions you may have.
I would also recommend you to go to www.noahidesevencommandments.com. You will find it a very sourceful site, along side this one (www.1stcovenant.com), about the Seven Laws and other topics. Also, www.noahidenations.com has some study programs as well.
Your assesment is correct and I, for one, was where you are at now. I fully understand your reasoning. I’m a student and learn something new every day. I would be happy to talk about anything you may have in mind, for, I, too, learn by conversations.
Those Christians that study are the ones that find Truth. These are special individuals. Why? Because they want to “draw nearer” to their Creator. What you will find out is that, as you begin to understand, you will be able to connect even more.
The Seven laws are the begining of the journey. However, there is always more beyond that.
Hope to see you actively asking questions as you continue in your journey.
May you be blessed by the Creator of all; the G’d of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses and all of Israel and the world in general.
Best wishes,
Hiram