Tolerance - re: John Hagee article
We got intense feedback on the last article, about appreciating Christians like Rev. John Hagee. Unfortunately, I managed to accidently delete the posts from the writers who liked the piece, and the writers who hated the piece wrote personal e-mails which I don’t feel at liberty to put up on the blog.
I have put up a link to the Articles Page of the 1stcovenant website. These articles struck me as particularly pertinent to our subject, including the Seven Universal Laws as they apply to Christians and others who don’t share the same faith or belief-system as israel.
These articles include: Judaism and Tolerance (marked as *New*) by Rav Adin Steinsaltz - who recently accepted an appointment as the Head of the so-called New Sanhedrin (although where he stands with it now, if it’s even still operating, is open to question); an article from the New York Times called Noah and 9/11, written by Tom Friedman for the New York Times on the first anniversary of 9/11/01; and an article by Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, Fulfilling our Biblical Mandate. I would also urge readers who still have a question about Torah and tolerance to read the commentary in the Hertz Pentateuch (the “Hertz Torah” or “Hertz Chumash”) on Deuteronomy 4:19. This is the passage where Moses our Teacher speaks of the stars, planets and other mere creations “allotted” to other nations. The commentary is headed “Religious Tolerance” and, by the way, it specifically speaks of the Noahide Laws.
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An article from religioustolerance.org, “CAN NON-CATHOLICS BE SAVED
ACCORDING TO THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH?”
It’s interesting to note the pre-Vatican 2 position of the RCC and the post-Vatican 2 position. Specifically, Biblical religions (Islam, Judaism) bear a specific relationship to Catholicism, but the implication is that *all* religions are a preparatory step towards salvation. This article is mostly about Catholicism/Christianity, but there are a number of interesting quotes from many Popes:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/rcc_salv.htm
This is a nice variant of the idea that idolatry is a necessary step in the religious instruction of mankind, only it’s the reverse of what I think is the correct modus operandi, with religions leading to the Christian view of the Bible rather than to the Judeo-Noahide view of it.
Be well.
R.
The acceptance by the nascent Sanhedrin of missionaries as ‘Ger Toshav’ has created a huge controversy.
Just because christianity and so called Hebrew Roots groups have greater numbers does not mean that is a positive step. In fact the aim of the so called Hebrew Roots groups is to infiltrate the land of Israel and take over much of the land. As far as I am concerned this is a dreadful mistake, and one which Israel will pay a very high price for if it is allowed to continue.
Historically the rabbis have defined christianity as Edom an ancient enemy of Israel. Christianity is the error which most bnai Noah have left behind, or are in the process of leaving behind. And without doubt christianity is at its very roots ‘pagan’!
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/sunburst.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Heaven
One cannot ‘clean up’ a religion that at its core is still pagan.
One must abandon it completely, and do as it says in Jer. 16:19-21.
HaShem, my Strength, my Stronghold and my Refuge on the day of distress! To You nations will come from the ends of the earth and say: “It was all falsehood that our ancestors inherited, futility that has no purpose. 20 Can a man make gods for himself? - they are not gods!”
21 Therefore, behold, I inform them at this time, I shall let them know of My hand and My strength; and they shall know that My Name is HaShem!
Nothing less is acceptable that complete teshuvah and the turning away from all idolatry. That includes believing that a dead man is god.
Frances
One of the People of Israel’s most ancient and frequently repeated expressions is, “How long, o L’rd, how long? That is, how long will people keep getting so many things completely backwards? (How long will the the human race keep making a mess, a dog’s breakfast, of our collective legacy as G’d’s children?) One day people will generally agree that the Torah is true. It’s no sin to say so, either. But we don’t need to clobber them over the head in the meantime because they don’t understand Torah as we do.
Following this string, on Torah and tolerance, my friend Rev. Jack Saunders just sent this:
Taken from: “A Book of Jewish Thoughts,” edited by Rabbi J.H. Hertz, Chapter V, “The Voice of Wisdom,” page 306:
VII. Toleration
“An aged man, whom Abraham hospitably invited to his tent, refused to join him prayer to the One spiritual G’d. Learning that he was a fire-worshipper. Abraham drove him from his door. That night G’d appeared to Abraham in a vision and said: ‘I have borne with that ignorant man for seventy years; could you not have patiently suffered him one night?’ ”
Shalom,
Jack
In an email to the blog which I accidentally erased earlier today, Andrea M. Chester wrote, responding to my comments about Rev. John Hagee and tolerance, etc. . . (Andrea sent this to me privately, for reposting to the blog.)
< thank you, michael. i have wanted to say something like that for years….in fact, i HAVE said it, and been promptly shot down for it. i hope this can be a shofar call for all of us.
to all my b’nai noah compatriots….the eyes of the world are watching to see if we are for real. we cannot afford to adopt the arrogance of some religious folk. we are, along with observant judaism, the representatives of God’s hope for this crazy planet.
most of us spent some time stumbling around in error. we knew something wasn’t right, but many of us didn’t know what….until some kind soul offered us tidbits of the Way. some of us had to be coaxed and challenged. but all of us had to be treated with respect. even when we were at our most lost, we had precious pieces of faith and truth. we would still be wandering around in the night if someone hadn’t seen, and nurtured, those sparks. clobbering other humans with superior attitudes and disdain is not nurturing the spark.
Andrea
The power that some people think their religion gives them over others is a heady drug. It’s like Narcissus gazing at his reflection in the pool, vain and self-congratulatory and, finally, self-defeating.
The true essence of religion is to live in peaceful agreement with God and Man. Looking down upon another human being because he or she doesn’t possess the “true religion” is tolerant, nor is it truly monotheistic. The Bible calls the Almighty “long-suffering” and “patient,” two terms that many need to become more familiar with.
Israel does not have the luxury of tolerating idolatry. I take it that this quote:
Taken from: “A Book of Jewish Thoughts,†edited by Rabbi J.H. Hertz, Chapter V, “The Voice of Wisdom,†page 306:
VII. Toleration
“An aged man, whom Abraham hospitably invited to his tent, refused to join him prayer to the One spiritual G’d. Learning that he was a fire-worshipper. Abraham drove him from his door. That night G’d appeared to Abraham in a vision and said: ‘I have borne with that ignorant man for seventy years; could you not have patiently suffered him one night?’ â€
Was from a midrash? Do you have a source? Would the rabbis be happy to join in the prayers of a christian? I seriously doubt it. I do not think that the lesson there was about turning away someone who truly wants to learn, I believe it was about hospitality. On the other hand the pagan guest only wanted to ‘eat the food in Abrahams tent’, he indicated by refusing to pray with Abraham, that he didn’t want to be accepted as a Ger Toshav, or even as a ‘righteous gentile’.
While there is noting preventing Noahides from associating with those around them, should those missionaries have been made Ger Toshav? Especially since their sole goal is the corruption of Jews in the manner that Balaam taught Balac to seduce Israel!
Read this and weep.
http://www.aarons-advocates.org/BACHA10.html
That url reached by following the links on the Christian Ministry Renewal International [CMRI] owned by one of the men who took the pledge/oath to become Ger Toshav. Israel needs to be extremely careful before taking a ‘Trojan Horse’ into the Holy land or declaring them to be righteous gentiles.
Jeremiah’s message that a leopard doesn’t change its spots is true.
Jeremiah 13:23 Can a Cushite change his skin [color], or a leopard its spots? So too, can you - in whom evil is ingrained - do good?
You are known by the company you keep. It is one thing to feed an idolator, it is quite another to take him to your bosom.
Someone just told me that it wasn’t the fellows who make up the so-called nascent sanhedrin but only a reporter or stringer for a paper or radio station, who declared this chap Rev. R to be whatever you believe they declared him to be.
Jack suggests to me that the best way to approach people who may be at the point he was some years ago is to go over the Bible’s points about G’d’s covenants being eternal, that Israel still functions, that prophecy has been realized and is being realized, etc.
“Someone just told me that it wasn’t the fellows who make up the so-called nascent sanhedrin but only a reporter or stringer for a paper or radio station, who declared this chap Rev. R to be whatever you believe they declared him to be.”
Well somebody has misinformed you. By accepting them to make an oath or pledge before the Sanhedrin, and publicizing it, there is a video YouTube with the event recorded for posterity. With Rav Yoel Schwartz declaring their being there for Succot was even greater than the previous acceptance by the Sanhedrin, when they hadn’t even check their credentials, means that they have fuliflled the law regarding Ger Toshav! Which was exactly the goal of these ‘Hebrew Roots’ ‘Joes’ ‘Ephraimites’ which they claim to be.
As Ephraimites they are even claiming that they have rights to much of the land of Israel.
I think we, as Noahides, have a tricky rope to walk. On the one hand, we mustn’t shut people down before they even indicate a desire to learn more deeply. But, as Frances notes, we must hold a line somewhere. Drawing that line takes wisdom and humility. The transition for each of us is a journey, an evolution, not a fait accompli.
A Noahide grows through many stages, slowly separating himself from the error of paganism, attaching himself to God, refining his understanding of God, and practicing holiness. Eventually, he must break entirely from all paganism…..but he doesn’t have to do that before he even walks in the door.
My story (Switching Horses in Mid-stream, on the 1st Covenant site) tells about the question that started me on this journey. My sister asked, “What would it do to your faith if you found out that Jesus was just a man…a good man, but just a man?†That gentle question was a stroke of genius. It implied that she cared whether I could discard cherished beliefs. It implied that I had a faith worthy of cultivating, worth protecting. It implied that I could, that I WOULD, study and learn, and grow towards the truth.
Aside from the Jesus question, most Christians are living by the basics of the Universal Laws. They aren’t totally, hopelessly benighted pagans. They revere God, as they understand Him. They give tithes, they pray, they know God loves them and expects them to live good lives. They have a pretty accurate idea of what a good life is….. Hey, guys, this ain’t rocket science here! Many Christians do love Israel, even though it IS with the expectation that Israel will become Christian. From that base, which is sound morality, they need education about God and about developing a relationship to Him.
For me, it took some real chewing on things to separate myself from the Jesus figure. I never believed he was God, but a strong emotional element tied me to him. I thought that his blood atoned for my sins, and that meant I “owed him†big-time. I had to learn how and why that was wrong, and see that it was a pagan teaching dressed in Jewish-looking clothes.
But, I still believe that he was good man whose teachings have been twisted to mean things he didn’t say. I still think many of the things I remember from the New Testament are really good stuff, worthy of reading, remembering, and quoting. In fact, most of those things can be found in the Tanach!
Noahides have no business trying to judge each other about the quality of their halachic observance. Much of the quibbling on Noahide sites seems to center on arguing over Talmudic statements or hashing over the halacha on obscure points that have little practical application to us…..My question, on any point, is always, how will this help me live a life pleasing to God? If it’s just mental chewing gum, I personally don’t have the time or patience to bother with it.
The fact is, Noahides are not necessarily Jews-in-training. We don’t have to be fluent in Hebrew, although some are. We don’t have to know Talmud, midrash, or mishnah, although many do study those texts. We are not under the authority of rabbinic ruling, unless we place ourselves in that position. We don’t quickly shed our old religious ideas, even when we know they are only dirty rags. We have to want to grow, commit ourselves to learning, and move in that direction. The drek WILL drop off, as long as we keep learning and moving upwards.
By the way, when did this posting about many Christians blessing Israel de-rail and become about the Sanhedrin accepting Christian missionaries as ger toshav? It’s not the same thing at all. Missionaries have an agenda to convert Israel, not live among them by their rules. I understand my Bible to say that “When in Israel, do as the Jews do.”
In that instance, I fully agree with Frances that Israel had better be REAL careful about taking in Trojan horses. Some of those horses turn and tromple the trainers!
Israel has had quite a lot of experience with gentile missionaries, going back to missionaries for Marduk (undoubtedly including their auxiliaries, Jews for Marduk), and certainly at least as far back as Amenhotep (including, no doubt, Ivri - Hebrews - for Amenhotep).
As for the Noahides among us, most of them are hyper-sensitive when it comes to Christian missionizing.
I think we’ll all probably be ok.
Wrapped up in all of the cultism and mysticism, the ancients knew that there was a single, Supreme Deity. Witness the similarities between Plotinus’ Neoplatonism and the Kabbalah (that all of the many religious roads to mankind lead to the One), or the fact that some of the Greeks and Romans were willing to adopt some or all of Jewish rites while still remaining non-Jewish. Or, again, the philosophers and their conception of the Deity. All of these opinions from olden times, and the opinions that people now have about G’d, are instructional. Mankind needs to learn what G’d is (or is not) before the human race can profess to have any belief in Him.
The castigation remains the same, as always, and many former Christians are now going after their former religion with a vengeance. I don’t think they need to do this. If they know that Christianity is in error, they should be happy to point these errors out in a constructive and non-confrontational way to their former religious comrades. As Jews and Noahides see things, the Unity of G’d is reflected in the Unity of the Torah. There’s no need to go out and nitpick or get all up in arms if someone likes a certain day of the year, say Dec. 25, for a religious celebration. On the one hand, anti-religious people are trying to banish Christmas from the public sphere. And on the other, religious people are trying to banish Christmas from the religious sphere because it isn’t, for lack of a better term, religiously kosher.
There’s going to be no perfect solution, someone is going to get mad when they see something “impure.” It’s better to realize this, and that a lot of the religious ideas that people presently have aren’t unique. Ideas get around. Polytheists borrowed from monotheists and vice-versa. Syncretizing has its bad and good aspects. An entirely “pure” monotheism is legalistic and stale, and can become indolent and violently intolerant of anything regarded as impure. An entirely open monotheism might as well be 10,000 gods as compared to One G’d.
I don’t understand the last sentence. It sort of sounds like Thomas Jefferson’s comment about being perfectly indifferent whether his neighbor worships one or several gods. Is that it?
You said something before about Christmas, December 25 - what’s wrong with gentiles celebrating their own holidays if they want to? The idea was, even if the holidays in question started out being less than perfectly monotheistic.
Open monotheism means open in the way the Unitarian Universalism is open, anything and everything goes, so you might as well worship 10,000 gods rather than the One.
As to the holidays like Christmas, who is still alive who remembers them for what they once were? Just because, thousands of years ago, ancient pagans worshipped on Dec. 25 doesn’t mean modern people do.
One last bit that I didn’t get to add…
As to the Jefferson quote, I believe that was in regards to freedom of religion. Yes, that’s basically what I was implying. In the Bible it was G’d who gave mankind freedom of choice when it came to religion, as exampled in Deut. 4, beginning about 19 or 20. The Hertz has an entire subset for this portion called “Religious Tolerance,” and it says:
“G’d had suffered the heathens to worship the sun, moon, and stars as a stepping-stone to a higher stage of religious belief.”
and
“Such followers of others faiths, they (the rabbis) taught, were judged by G’d purely by their moral life.”
Toleration of other religions, even other gods, is explicit in the Bible and it doesn’t imply that the guy religion you’re tolerating is going to try to convert you (*most* religions don’t work that way; I’ve never met a Sikh or a Buddhist who has tried to convert me).
That seems to be the problem, as I see things. Many people seem to think that tolerating other religions, festivals and such, implies knuckling under to these other faiths.
I think Robert has a point. Tolerating other religions does, in many minds, equate to contamination….like we catch “cooties” or something.
One problem is that people tend to borrow neat stuff from other religions and other cultures. In Deuteronomy, especially in chapters 12 and 13, God’s warning to all His people is to keep the religion pure because, (Deut. 12: 31) “every abomination to the Lord, which He hateth, have they done unto their gods…”
It takes wisdom and diligence to keep God’s pure and simple Laws, actually. Now, I could go into a lengthy diatribe about adding or subtracting, but it would be neither helpful nor wise to do so. I have a very “plain vanilla” approach to worship, as I have stated elsewhere. I think that pleasing worship to the One True God can, and should, be easy and uncomplicated. The ground rules are simple, and mostly just good moral common sense.
As long as we are within the broad guidelines, and our heart is pure, I (personally) think we are “okay.” Our job then is to figure out whether we are content being “okay,” or if we want to shoot for “excellent.”
That’s where commentaries and rabbinic rulings come in. Has God expressly said “NO” to a particular practice? Has He said, “well, okay under certain conditions” or is it always “no.” Those of us coming out of Christianity, for example, need to figure out (for ourselves) whether certain of our practices and/or traditions are insulting to God. We can ask for the opinions of others whose wisdom we trust. We can research the practice in question for ourselves. We can let someone else do the thinking for us, based on established precedent.
God gave us brains, and souls, and hearts (and other people) to help us figure these things out. But, in the end, our choices and behavior are ours alone. We can make it simple and gracious or stringent and unwelcoming, but the end is really up to us.
There’s also the little fact that religion has never been static. Judaism was greatly influenced by Platonic-Aristotelian philosophy. There was even an argument going ’round once that Aristotle was a Benjaminite and no less a Jewish figure than Maimonides was heavily influenced by him. Philo Judaeus, contemporary with Jesus and Paul, was attracted to many of the ideas of philosophical schools like Stoicism, and he harmonized many of the concepts that later found their way into Christianity. Would any consider this sort of intellectual, philosophical, and theological interaction between Jewish ideas and Gentile ideas a bad thing? If anyone says “yes,” I’d like to see the reasons why.
Well, Robert, I am no scholar, nor an authority on anything except myself. But, it seems to me that we think similarly on a few points. For example, although there are some very important differences between Judaism and Christianity, there are also some strong similarities. The biggest of those differences is in theology, not in practical morality. That’s why I get somewhat “bent” when Noahides feel impelled to argue “halacha” on things. We already know how to conduct ourselves in a manner pleasing to God, for cryin’ out loud. That’s no different….be kind to people and animals, don’t rob, murder, be sexually immoral, believe in the One True God, obey law and order.
As we emerge from Christianity, we learn new ways of thinking about Who and What God is, and we eventually must let go of our intermediary figures, but the basis is already there. I get such a laugh when people ask, “What do we do about prayer?” The answer is…”Pray!”
That’s why I keep saying….this isn’t complicated. Complex, yes, because it has many different applications. But certainly not complicated.
The system that I am thinking of are the so-called natural laws, the sort of religion that the Greek philosophers or Enlightenment deists had. It was speculative and grounded in empiricism and had little or nothing to do with mystery and divine decrees. I’m not an expert on halacha and I don’t want to be. My religion is perfectly rational to me because it comes from within, not from externals like laws, legalism, and all of the things Jesus accused the priesthood of representing. Christianity and Judaism have a lot in common because both of them are, all things aside, religions of human nature. There’s nothing at all complicated about living in agreement with one’s nature as a human being, but so many people overcomplicate the matter with unnatural concepts like original sin, redemption (as compared to repentance), and blind dogma rather than an open-ended inquiry.
One of my favorite figures from the Revolutionary period in America, Thomas Paine (no friend of Christianity or the Bible), summed it up this way:
“I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.
I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.”
About belief vs. worship or belief vs. deliberately studying and performing the commandments, I had a conversation recently which touched on it - whether someone who isn’t Jewish should study and try to live any of Israel’s national commandments. . .
I’m not saying that you, Robert, or Andrea are wrong - because I don’t think you are wrong. But there is this other aspect. Below, my Gentile interlocutor’s comments are marked as quotes, followed my by replies
> That’s the difference between us, I guess. You see the Torah as a way of life and something of far greater consequence than I ever could.>
I don’t get it, really. We [Jewish people] do things based on Torah that the world eventually picks up and incorporates into their minimal standards of sane belief and civilized conduct. Why wouldn’t one want that? We believe that this stuff really is holy - and it keeps proving itself to be holy. How can one be indifferent to holiness?
How can one be indifferent to something w/ these inherent and historical chops and say, without looking into it w/ nearly the intensity you’ve put into studying all sorts of other things, that it’s not for you?
>My ideas of holiness are probably different than what Jews regard as holy. There’s one aspect, which is self-interested (not selfishness). My self-interest comes from attempting to emulate God and live in agreement with God. Only when I come to this self-realization can I fulfill my duties to others- fulfilling my obligations to my friends, family, and society.>
Again, I don’t really get it. Not to brag, I fulfill commandment/mitzvos whether or not I’m complete - I’m never complete. It’s the same w/ everyone. The presiding rabbi at my shul, who’s a wonderful guy, mentioned the other day that he frequently feels both hopeless and helpless - but, I’ve seen this, he does the mitzvos and connects to G’d and does what he needs to do vis a vis everyone else. He tries to be as much of a mensch - a real, worthy man - and man of Torah as he can.
If we waited ’til we were self-realized we’d be paralyzed. We do what we can while we can and study and aspire to do better - and assume that on the way we’ll become more and more self-realized.
Well, I agree with studying to learn what God expects of us…I think we can do that, and increase our holy behavior, without straining over the details. When I say this ain’t rocket science, I mean that the BASICS are more or less natural. As Michael so eloquently points out in The Rainbow Covenant, we should desire to move from “basic” to “better” . And, as I earlier said, keeping the commandments on a consistent basis does take study and diligence, because “nature” also dictates that often, I wanna do it MY way, rather than doing what’s right.
I also agree, Michael, that doing mitvos fulfills us…. Kinda like the people who say they don’t want kids till they can afford them….then you may never have them. Do what God expects of you, and you will move towards “self-realization,” as a consequence.
Self-realization is a perfectly acceptable process.
Knowledge of a book, or the Bible, or knowledge of commandments does not mean that someone is a holy person. That’s just knowledge, and anyone can come by knowledge. Knowledge itself isn’t holy, human activity is (call it self-realization or mitzvah, if you will, the activity is all for the same purpose- becoming closer to the Creator).
Whomever has to transform internally, to be perfectly accepting of Providence, before he or she can affect the world. Going about life haphazardly and/or with the wrong priorities is a certain way to self-destruction.
>Robert wrote: Knowledge itself isn’t holy, human activity is (call it self-realization or mitzvah, if you will, the activity is all for the same purpose- becoming closer to the Creator).>
You might say that - but G’d wants you to serve Him, to do His will, and that often means doing what needs doing right then and there.
For instance - your partner wants you to take some sort of action, your sister asks you for help, a girl wants to get married but needs help, while some guy begs you for money, and maybe you need a loan yourself . . . Whether you feel close to G’d at that moment or not, you still need to act in some way. One has a much better chance of acting correctly if one already has a good grasp of what holiness requires.
More to say on this subject - but no time. . . . shalom.
Perhaps the problem is this: many people simply expect too much from Christians et al. (in terms of knowledge of the Bible and its requirements) when they have little or no knowledge of the basics.
Talking to a Christian, who probably has no knowledge of the minimal standards of human decency and religion (from the Torah perspective), about halacha, mitzvah, and such is only going to confuse these people. They will probably make the accusation of overt Judaizing (which I’ve seen happen, some Christians want nothing at all to do with Judaism or Jews) and accuse the well-meaning Jews/Noahides of attempting to do away with the worship of Jesus.
Okay, this is getting pretty far out there…. I’m not sure what point Robert is making here, but I’m going to chime in my two cents, and then bow out of the conversation.
Point 1) Christians revere what they call the Old Testament (at differing levels), because it is considered the history of Jesus’ people and the prophecies of his coming. They believe in the God they think the Scriptures reveal. They believe that Old Testament prophecies must be fulfilled, and they believe that those scriptures are important for a reference of what God expects of us. Some Christians are into it more than others, but there ain’t one out there who isn’t familiar with the “Ten Commandments.” To the Christian view, those commandments are binding on all God-fearing people (they consider Sunday the “new” Sabbath).
Point 2) An observant Christian has more than a nodding acquaintance with Biblical standards of decency and morality….. In some areas, like divorce, they are even stricter than Tanach (Old Testament) standards. They believe that Jesus explained and amplified the Law. They also believe that he fulfilled all the Law, and that’s why Christians don’t think the dietary, ritual, or national laws are binding on Christians. (By the way….they aren’t, unless you take them on voluntarily.)
Point 3) Well-meaning Jews and Noahides ARE attempting to do away with the worship of Jesus, through education (not by force or coersion). Jesus was a MAN. Once you get to a certain point of realization, you cannot, in good conscience, worship a man, no matter how good you think he was. Christians worship God, but they add Jesus as His son and their redeemer. The New Testament scriptures have been twisted and re-written many times. (Refer to Alan Cecil’s excellent article, found in the articles section of this site. You can also look at his website www.academyofshem.com))
Many Christians are flat-out taught that Jesus is equal to God. Some even say he IS God. That is the big point where observant Christians are really ‘way off base. Once they understand that Jesus isn’t who they have always been taught that he is, the rest of the Jesus-worship structure crumbles. That still leaves a very good base…..love of God and moral behavior…. to build on, minus the Jesus worship.
Point 4) There’s no need to jump into a conversation about halacha with non-Jews, unless they are ready for it. At the beginning stages of separating oneself from the pagan beliefs they have been familiar with, halacha is rather irrelevant. The important part is to begin the journey, and that journey usually begins (for the Christian) with doubts about who the man really was.
I just have one question on religious tolerance in the Torah and Tanakh.
If this were so, then why does the Torah go into so much detail to let everyone know that HaShem is Elokim and that there is no other?
Yes, G-d has allowed patience for these people, but it seems to be in order for them to take that needed “step” out of their incorrect ideas and into a closer more correct idea.
I think we keep forgetting the mission of Israel; “to be a light unto the nations”. Don’t forget Solomon’s dedication of the Temple for this is a most important clue to the mission of Israel and the “Step” the Nations need to take towards meeting half-way with Israel.
HaShem, Torah and Israel as His witnesses of His Existence.
Respectfully,
Hiram
The bible presents two types of people who have a belief in G’d:
* People that believe in One G’d.
* People who have some kind of misbelief about G’d, be they atheists, idolaters, or whatever.
Religious tolerance is necessary because many people have no idea what the Torah is talking about when it mentions G’d. I know this from firsthand experience from conversations with my mother (a Christian), who can’t seem to grasp the implications of what I’m trying to explain to her about G’d (that G’d is One, is not a man or anything physical [and cannot be or He would not be G’d]). It’s like we’re from different countries trying to communicate to each other in our native languages. She’ll claim to understand what I’m saying, but then fall back into the error by declaiming Jesus.
We have an article by Rabbi S. Boteach on the website’s articles page, not far down the page, in which he argues that the 7 Laws offer the world a choice: 1) pure monotheism; 2) a possibly more “comfortable,” “intimate” belief in a cozier, warmer-fuzzier sort of intermediating deity.
Pure monotheism is ideal, but even a semi-monotheism is better than atheism (that G’d doesn’t exist) or maltheism (that G’d exists but is evil).
Using Christianity as an example, it is a religion that is based equally on biblical and non-biblical sources. No one can deny the positive aspects of Christianity, nor its impressive contributions to the world- contributions that have only emerged on a global scale within the past few centuries. That is, around the time of Protestant Reformation, when Christians began to seriously consider all of the aspects of their religion. To this day, not all Christians are trinitarians. One of the first modern congregations of unitarian Christians was established in Romania in the 16th century:
http://www.unitarius.hu/
Many modern Christians in America mightn’t be aware of the goings-on in the early church. The trinitarian doctrine was formalized at the Council of Nikea in 325 ce. Jesus lived from around 6 bce to 28 ce. It took that long for the trinitarian doctrine to develop, regardless of what the apologists say. Prior to the Council of Nikea, summoned by Constantine (a pagan sun-worshipper who was baptized on his deathbead), there were many sects of Christianity. After the bishop of Rome became allied to the Roman Emperor, the predictable happened and the “heretical” sects were more or less wiped out.
Hi all,
I will be the one to stand aside and say, the Torah requires the recognition of only One G-d, no intermediary deity.
Please, re-read Abraham’s story. If it was OK to have any such thing, he would not have had to leave his land. G’d would not have spoken to Him, later revealing Himself to him.
I’m sorry, there’s no way about it. I don’t see JC being OK by G’d if the intent of worship has been directed to him.
Again, an intermediary is the meaning of the “golden calf”. Read this story again and you will see that. Or, am I the one that doesn’t see it correctly?
What we need to remember is that G’d wants all men to recognize Him and only Him. However, we have to have good relationships with one another in order to come to discussions on this matter. Once the clarity of the Torah; which is Israel’s mission, is shown to people, then will they have opened eyes to see why the Seven Laws are to be followed.
That is the meaning of the Rambam’s idea of Pious. A man that follows the Seven, without realizing it’s Divine connection is only partly there. That person still has another step to go before they fully understand the reason “why?” to follow these principles in their daily life.
Being nice to one another is one thing, but giving correct ideas about G’d are another. People can argue this topic over and over and go round for round, but the Tanakh will clarify it.
Ecclesiastes 12:13 (KJV) 13Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Does this include any intermediary? Not if you look at every instance when any other deity was a part of Israel and especially the Nations.
Do we neglet Christians? No, they are people just like us. Do we help them understand what their Bible contains? Yes, for this will help them appreciate more G’d’s Divinely Given Torah and put the correct intent on their desire for helping Israel.
One thing people don’t realize is that in Revelations, the return of Israel to the land will usher in the coming of JC, as per the books point of view.
This return and establishment of Israel has prophetic meaning not just to Israel, but also the Christians. You see, they expect 140,000 members of the Children of Israel to be the ones that come to accept JC as their Messiah, while the others will be punished for not accepting him. It’s as though by helping Israel, many members of Israel will see it as an act of mercy and kindness, and then will come to ask why they do this. This in turn will give Christians the hope that Israel will accept JC as the Messiah, for they believe that he will return.
The question remaining, if this were not so, is “who is going to be the Jewish Messiah that Israel is waiting for and how is he and JC going to get along when he returns?” The Christian’s faith says that this will occur no matter how bad Israel denies JC as their Messiah. They fully accept that Israel will eventually, completely have to accept JC as the Messiah.
The problem that they have with JC being the Messiah is that the Torah doesn’t support it. So, how in the world can “having correct ideas about G’d” not be the “intent” for G’d giving the Torah?
All other religions validate the Torah in proving their falsehood. If they were not false, there would not be a need for the Torah.
Respectfully,
Hiram
good job, hiram. i said i was going to bow out of this conversation (in my last posting), but your comment is so good that i just had to say so.
B’H
Andrea,
I just want everyone to keep in mind that when we are talking about the Seven Laws, we need to remember what is being required of the observant Noachide; that is, law and the intent of the law for us. These two halfs of the same coin seem to get devided or split up in conversation.
Can a Christian be an observant Noachide? The answer is a Yes; however, once they start studying the mitzvot they will come to the same questions that many of us have come to when we were in their shoes. The reason for the “yes” is because they believe in the G’d of Israel, but have an incorrect idea of Him.
Now, what are they going to immediately start dealing with upon their journey into the Seven Laws?
The very first thing is “who G’d is or isn’t” in order to become observant of the law to abstain against idolatry. What many people don’t know or forget is that Christians are very concerned with attaining as close a relationship with G’d as possible. These people will immediately want to know what is or isn’t idolatry. The Tanakh teaches us that there’s only one G’d and that we can’t liken Him to anything! So, why would there be an exemption for anyone to have a need for a middle man or any other form that is given glory and honor in order to get to have some form of connection with our Creator? It’s just not there in my opinion.
Christians would immediately have conflict with the first of the Seven because they would have to give up Jesus as G’d and, once they go that far, they would have to give him up as being the Messiah. The reason for these statements? Because of the teachings concerning this in Judaism. They, like myself and others at one time, see the “old testament” as authoritative, even if they use it just for historical purposes. So, if they were to accept the Seven and started studying, which I think they could not avoid, they would have to deal with these issues. It’s going to be an inevitable situation because many of us are already learning and putting out information that these individuals would not be able to ignore.
So, we are to make sure we don’t hate or have contempt towards them, however, we are to also help them see all incorrect ideas of G’d within their teachings in order for them to achieve a closer connection than that which they’ve had to that point of accepting the Seven Laws.
I’ll stop on this point and hope everyone will at least consider it. It’s not that we can’t develope a relationship with these people and be nice and encourage Israel to accept their help. It’s about reminding ourselves and Israel that we are still called to teach people what the Torah says. The Torah has a covenant for the Nations and a special covenant for the Children of Israel. The Christian “covenant” doesn’t fit in the Torah, because there’s no need for an intermediary to have to fit when all it’s doing is taking the place of the “golden calf”?
Respectfully and Humbly,
Hiram
Hiram,
How do you know that all of other world’s religions are false? I’m not trying to sound confrontational when I say this, but that is the kind of view that many atheists, Christians, Muslims, et cetera have about their respective belief system. The Torah shows that G’d allowed for these other religions for a purpose, for the religious education of mankind, so how can they be false if they serve to instruct humanity? Many of the essentials of the 7M are contained within many of the world’s religions, and no one can gainsay the fact that these religions were once far less developed than they are at present. Even an obviously pagan religion like Wicca isn’t the kind of bloody thing that the religions of our ancestors were. That is something in itself, and I don’t think people really see that religion in general has been humanized by direct or indirect association with the Torah.
At this time, mankind is in its infancy. Man has risen far, but can rise even higher. All of the progress we’ve made is embryonic compared to what we’re capable of, and we’re in this race for the long haul. It’ll take centuries, maybe thousands of years, for mankind to collectively reach the level of Adam. That’s what G’d wants, He doesn’t want anything less than our complete attention. Second place or third place, in the form of the world’s religions, might suffice for now, but they won’t suffice forever.
All religions lead to G’d, in that all of the various religious roads will finally merge and meet the Temple Mount. Judaism has been around for over 3,000 years. The religious transformation that many of us here envision might take 100 years, 1,000 years, who knows. We’re basically in uncharted waters with this idea of a truly universal and accepting monotheism, and we’re in no position to make the mistakes of religious exclusivists like Christian or Muslim literalists. Even as we maintain the overall truth of our religion, we also have to recognize other religions for what they are: instructive and preparatory for the final days when it was written:
And the LORD shall be King over all the earth; in that day shall the LORD be One, and His name one. (Zechariah 14:9)
Robert,
I don’t take you as being confrontational Robert. I enjoy discussing these issues with you.
Ask yourself, what is text do Islam and Christianity are tied to and how?
My understanding for the allowing of such religions, from my own research, is to show they are false. The Torah is showing me this. It’s not my own personal desire to think this way. I wish it was that all religions lead to G’d, but then there would be no need for the Torah and G’d would not have made Israel the witnesses of His existence.
Look again at the religions and then look at how the people viewed those religions. The way their texts protray them is exactly how the Tanakh says they were.
I have done some research conserning the idea of all religions leading to G’d. In it’s true sense, there’s only one G’d, so, yes the followers of the religion are unknowingly worshiping Him. However, that is only because we know there’s only one G’d. The Torah is continually trying to tell us who El-him is. That can’t be ignored. BTW, read the verses prior to HaShem’s words in Zechariah 14:9; why do you think He says these words?
Now, what I’ve come to find out is that the individual religions seem to deal from the perspective of deities. The chief god can’t work without the other deities for they are placed in a specific area to work in and are limited to that area including their chief deity.
When it comes to the Ultimate and Unknowable Creator, that’s all they see Him as; unknowable and to far distanced from us. The Torah is teaching us otherwise.
Look at ancient Mesopotamian religions, look at Egyptian religion. Truth is that the Torah tells us that there’s always been a knowledge of the One G’d, but it was forgotten. That’s my point. The Torah seems to be trying to regroup everyone to that knowlege through its message.
Now, I agree that the two religions you mention are closer to the Torah than others for they have ties to it. But, they are, but a step away from recognizing who G’d isn’t. The problem is they won’t let go of that in order to find peace within. If they were to revert to the original message, they both would have many questions that would need answers.
As far as Wicca, the practioner seems to be his/her own G’d. Is that not limiting who G’d is?
I don’t agree that we are in our infancy. I think we have been in a deteriorating state. If we look at the patriarchs and the Sages after them, we find there the most brilliant men in history. Not only where they very intelligent, but they lived with high morals. Look at the counterparts of the their times and you find that those were intelligent, but lacking in morals. This I think is what made a difference. I also think that we are about to enter a new stage in our state of mind thanks to the new thinkers that are seeking absolute truth instead of theoretical truth within religious circles.
As I’ve mentioned already, the two religions you mentioned are fervent in their prayers, they are completely commited to living according to what they perceive that G’d wants from them. That is also a difference between them and other religions. However, when they have a G’d that requires of them to kill innocent people, or they have an idea that a man could be G’d, it’s up to us to teach them that those ideas are incorrect.
We do it by showing the beauty of the Torah and how it recognizes that which is correct and how to moderate it; however, it also teaches us what is incorrect or false so we can seperate ourselves from it. Again, this is found in the story of Abraham, which begat through his son Jacob the Children of Israel. He was a Noachide who lived by the Laws of Noach and taught it to his home and household.
So, I’m not saying that I think these religions are wrong. I’m saying that these religions, according to Torah, came about because of their distancing of the original knowledge of HaShem and that the Torah is the one that says they are incorrect and it’s trying to restore that correction.
Best wishes,
Hiram
sorry I made some spelling errors!
Hiram,
More will come when I’ve had a chance to think over a better reply, but I have to disagree with your assessment that the world is deteriorating. To me, this is tantamount to confirming the Christian doctrine of original sin. From an historical standpoint, the human race is no greater and no less wicked than it has been in the past. Wicked it more apparent because of mass media.
I also have to disagree when you say that the most brilliant men in history are to be found as the sages of Israel. Brilliance is an inherently human quality, and men and women of all nations have proven this- from Aristotle to Cicero to Confucius. Brilliance comes as a collective inheritance from G’d, to all of mankind, be they pagans or not. Now, I will say that the sages of Israel were morally superior to the pagans, but morality is something that is more likely to develop in a person than brilliance.
More to come…
Robert,
That’s fine. I just look at the contribution that the Torah and Israel has made to the world. I tend to only focus on the religious mostly. I know that there were many “smart” men, who gave us the means to technology, but what good is it if it doesn’t better the world’s moral mindset.
The Christian idea is that we are born in sin, therefore we need a blood sacrifice for atonement. This very fiber of Christian dogma is completely destroyed by the Torah. I’d be happy to share the passages that show that.
Now, my reason for saying that we are deteriorating is because I don’t see anything getting better in our societies, even though, there are people who are trying to be heard and make a difference.
Let me give you an example from my local news in my “backyard”:
“An accused baby murderer is out of jail on bond and the community has plenty to say about why Mitchell Delashmitt is allowed to wander the streets. On the eve of the trial, the judge threw out Delashmitt’s confession, because he apparently asked for an attorney to be present and didn’t get one.
Meanwhile Delashmitt’s attorney claims he has new evidence that will clear his client in the death of his young daughter. That evidence reportedly shows that Angel Delashmitt drowned in a pond that she stumbled into.
Delashmitt made bond yesterday and is out of jail three years after he confessed to raping and murdering his 14-month old daughter. Little Angel Dunn’s family is outraged over what they call an unfair justice system.”
As you read the story, this guy had done time based on his personally written confession of the murder of his own child. How can this not show the deterioration of our governments level of morality?
I understand the claims of his attorney, but the man confessed to doing it.
Again, the efforts by those in communities with true moral values, just don’t get listened to when they speak. For some reason, that just let’s me think that things are not getting better, but worse. If indeed, he didn’t have an attorney present, then that needs to be looked at, but he confessed and it got dismissed on a technicallity that could have been looked at, while still being inprisoned, until a new hearing could prove that he is innocent.
My concern is for the level of moral understanding that the world populace has. And, when I read the Torah, it tells me that Hashem wants all people to know him as Israel does. Do I dismiss it simply because of what I feel to be a better understanding or do I deal with this issue because the Torah is seen by my eyes as the literal word of G-d? For me, there’s only one answer. How I deal with people is also part of that answer. I need to be kind and nice to people, but when I get the chance to discuss the Seven Laws, I need to be able to tell them why I know this way to be the way for humanity. It’s not because I want it to be that way, but because it’s the way that the Creator chose for us to live by. Who this creator is, also plays a part on that if people are going to be able to identify with Him.
Oh, I want it to be known, I’m not trying to be heard-headed. I can only say what I see the Torah text saying after studying it for the answer that tells me what it is saying. I speak only what my understanding is from the Torah and the Prophets. They go hand in hand. If anyone wants to say the opposite of the Torah, they need to give their evidence from the Torah point of view so that I can see my error and correct it.
Respectfully,
Hiram
Local news said that Mr. Delashmitt reportedly wrote on his confession that he was drunk, high and was watching porn before his actions.
On an update local news said:
“Members of the McMinn County community rallied in the name of little Angel Delashmitt and her family found emotional support, among strangers.
Mitchell Delashmitt is charged with raping and murdering his young daughter … But on the eve of his trial, the judge threw out his signed confession. That decision was made because Delashmitt apparently requested an attorney be present, and there wasn’t one.
The judge then lowered bond from $500,000 to $15,000 and Delashmitt is out of jail. But her family refuses to give up their fight for justice.”
Just wanted to share this. Last night one of the protestors said that “if he could do this to his own child (14months old) what would keep him from doing it to another?”
Best wishes,
Hiram
This is somewhat off-topic. But I can’t resist replying. I would prefer getting back to the big question: how should we regard non-Jews who don’t worship HaShem? In the meantime, turning back to the McMinn County court:
I wouldn’t be surprised if it turned out that Mr. Delashmitt did indeed murder 14-month old Angel Delashmitt, his own child. But the question here, it seems to me, isn’t whether he did it but whether the state can prove he did it beyond a reasonable doubt.
That’s what justice requires and that’s what the Tennessee court is trying to find out.
We’re talking about a noahide court - a secular court, operating on behalf of the citizens of the United States and, particularly, the citizens of the State of Tennessee, in and for the County of McMinn.
Justice requires just procedures, what we call due process. Based on Hiram’s comments, it sounds to me like this noahide court is doing just as it should, pursuant to the basic human obligation (that is, the Noahide Commandment) to do justice by means of fair procedures, laws, and a system of police and courts.
I think it’s interesting that one’s own confession to crime is not accepted as valid evidence before a Torah court. The testimony of one who testifies against himself is not considered reliable. Confessions are inherently suspicious. That is, even when the person who offers to confess does so willingly and freely. Confessions are still generally regarded as untrustworthy.
A Noahide court, such as this McMinn County Court, can accept such confessions. In this case, though, where the person who allegedly confessed requested counsel but didn’t get it, whatever the police say he said voluntarily (after he requested counsel) can’t be accepted as having been said voluntarily. Let me put it this way. Whatever he told the police while they held him in their tender embrace, refusing to let him talk to anyone else while they insisted that he listen to them exclusively and talk to them exclusively, can’t be accepted as reliable testimony. It wasn’t a voluntary confession; whatever the police did or didn’t do while they held him, we have a rule in our country that that testimony is presumed to be coerced.
You can call the suppression of this confession a technical matter, but I’d say it illustrates the whole point of due process. Due process means the procedures that are due and proper in the circumstances - the kosher thing to do. The police didn’t do the kosher thing. They denied this person the process that was due him - the process that was due him just because he’s a person.
I think that the court’s refusal to accept this testimony exemplifies holy values.
I’m not saying that this Delashmitt person is a good person. I’m certainly not saying that the police involved are bad people (although they obviously erred in this case). I’m just saying that the court is a good noahide court which is following proper procedures - procedures which are godly, whether they are founded upon Revealed principles of Law or mere human experience. In America, most of our law is a peculiar mixture of both, starting with the proposition that all men have equal rights to life and liberty. That is a very godly proposition.
Why did the police refuse to let this man speak to counsel? Because counsel would have told this man to keep silent.
Incidentally, if you didn’t already know this, it’s common, even when a confession was supposedly given voluntarily, that it turns out later to be false. People confess to preposterous things, just to please police interrogators.
Maybe we should start another string? On Noahide courts and law?
Michael,
Thank you for clarifying that for me.
I knew you would help me on making sense of this, and that’s why I posted the case.
I do want to ask, however, is it not customary to read someone their Miranda rights? Would not this alert the individual that, if they give incriminating information after these rights are read to them, it will be used against them?
My main reason for posting it was because the moral value this individual has shown is proof of how deteriorating our society is, if he is guilty. And, if the police did coerced him, they are low in moral values as well.
Just this morning I heard of someone who went into a Mall and opened fire on innocent people. Again, the morality of our society is going down hill.
Anyway, thanks Michael for helping me understand the courts point of view.
Thanks,
Hiram
Hi Hiram,
I appreciate your gracious response. About Miranda, the police probably did read it to him - you have the right to remain silent, the right to counsel, if you can’t afford an attorney, etc. The problem here was that they didn’t let him exercise those rights. He asked for an attorney, per Miranda. The police acted as if he hadn’t and kept on interrogating him.
Is society suffering from a general coarsening of manners? Is America suffering a decline in standards of language, dress, modesty, and sexual morality? Are the religions our people - the American people - have been taking up taking them further away from HaShem?
These are very general questions but I’d be inclined to answer them all in the affirmative. Nevertheless, there are many promising exceptions. I think there is hope. I share Robert’s feeling that we as a species are getting better. But I also feel that we’re in a race against time. If we don’t get a lot better soon, we as a species will suffer horribly, and we will make human life on this planet very, very difficult.
Michael/Robert,
I would like to ask;
If we are getting better as a species, why is it that there doesn’t seem to be a turn for the better yet?
If, as a whole, humanity was turning for the better, where are the signs showing that this is indeed happening?
I think there are a few people who are trying to move forward. We find now that there are some scientists and political figures trying to deal with the issue of global warming and they are doing all they can to make the rest of the planet to listen. There are some people who have been for some time trying to help feed the needy and, yet, there doesn’t seem to be a move towards these needy people not being needy anymore. There are no jobs for the parents to have, there are no forms of making the area be a fruitful area on behalf of the people them selves, so they can provide for their families by their own means.
All I see is a circular process that keeps going and going while the earth is being depleated of its sources and many societies becoming a liability to the global economy.
Sin and malice seems to be what rules the heart of humanity as a whole today. All we have to do is look the world around us and we see more bad than we see good. I want to see the good within humanity, but the more I look, the more it reminds me of the times of the flood. Now, if all of humanity put forth the effort, progressively or at once, to work within their own inner self, then, they would start to make a change for the better.
I keep thinking that only something very “incredible” in our history is what will make this change for the greater good of all humanity and not just for some. What that something is can only be from above, even though people need to put the initiating effort and show they want it. I also keep thinking that G’d said He wouldn’t destroy the earth again with “flood waters”; however, He didn’t say we wouldn’t be the cause of our own destruction if we didn’t correct ourselves. In some places, that’s what I see to be a probable consequence for the lack of effort shown by most of humanity.
Would you say that the majority is correcting itself or that it is the minority and why?
Respectfully,
Hiram
I don’t pay attention to what the media has to say about anything. As far as I’m scared, manmade global warming is a massive hoax that’s being perpetrated by numerous parties for a variety of reasons. Our world has *naturally* experienced global warming and global cooling many times in its long life of 4.5 billion years.
Does anyone here remember the ice age scare of the 70s and 80s? Then, the world was supposed to be in the process of cooling down. Now, it’s supposed to be warming up. Global cooling was agendistic, just as global warming is.
I simply don’t trust the media to believe much of what it says. There’s two sides to every story, and I prefer to maintain my belief that all is well with the world. A few degenerates will be gone soon enough, don’t we trust G’d when He says that He will take care of these kinds of people, in His own way? Saddam met a very deserved end.
Planet Earth is as good as it’s always been. The only thing that makes this good into bad is human wickedness. But, without wickedness, where would the good come from?
“Be still, and know that I am G’d.”
Psalms 46:11
Robert,
Well, I can agree with that.
I guess that the issue that I see is based on what is going on in the Media. Looking at my enviroment; however, I see areas of concern that I don’t need the media to tell me about. I know that the polar ice caps are melting, we can see it. If we used water to power things, the extra water could be used and not let it over run the earth.
Did anyone watch O’Reiley last night? There is a state, can’t remember, that will allow public indecency and even sex at a club and not do anything about it unless a crime is being commited; something about “freedom of expression”. Michael could be more clear on this matter than I can.
I made the statement to Jack, before watching that show BTW, last night that it seems like “the law can’t be proactive, it can only react”. However, we as human beings are expected to be proactive in many facets of life.
I think the missing link is that not everyone has decided to make an effort to fix the inner man in order to fully understand the “why?” of the law.
Please, do understand that I question things so that we can look at every angle possible in order for us to come to a more complete conclusion. As we all know, we are continually learning and should strive to make sure that we have gone as far as we can on a certain issue before we declare it to be so.
When I question an issue is because I want to make for sure that I’ve looked at every possible angle in order to know why I can express that notion. If I can’t give a good and understanding reason, then, I see myself needing more understanding. I will not settle for “I believe it to be so”. I want to be able to say, “I know this to be so and this is why..”
Thanks Michael and Robert for speaking with me on this because I really did need to talk about it. I learned from the both of you and I want you to know that.
Respectfully,
Hiram
Hiram,
I don’t watch any of those programs like Bill O’Reilly. I find those types to be little better than demogogues and political spindoctors, whatever side of the political isle they happen to be on.
As to the state of the world, all I can say is that a person should do what he or she can to make it better and then let the rest go and trust in G’d to do His part. I’m constantly hearing people bemoan the state of the world. Why did G’d say it was “very good” and the end of the Six Days? Being G’d, He obviously knew what was going to happen, yet he still made that pronouncement. All was well then, and all is well now.
R.
I posted this previously, at the end of another string. It seems to have gotten lost. If someone could provide some answers, I’d appreciate it.
Michael Says:
February 16th, 2007 at 2:45 am
I’m often struck by the fervency of Christian belief in the man they regard as G’d’s anointed.
He’s more than just a historical figure to them. He’s not just a teacher or prophet of long ago in their minds. He is a living being to them.
He transcends time and space. He is a friend, a father, an elder brother, a buddy, a best friend, a confidant, a defender and shield. . .
It’s hard for me to understand this.
Now, Muslims believe in Allah. Allah is all things to them. They often seem to have many lesser lights - devils, jinns, angels, and also some mystical, supernatural teaching figures like Jesus. But Allah is G’d, as far as they’re concerned.
What completely throws me here is that Allah is not HaShem.
He’s very different from the G’d of Abraham, Who loves kindness and mishpat/justice and judgment. Allah doesn’t much like Jews or Israel. He doesn’t seem to have any regard for the welfare of animals, either. And He denies human free will. Allah is a being who will make a person do bad things and then punish him for being bad.
The thing that puzzles me so much about this is that Muslims seem to get by perfectly happily without the personal, intimate relationship that Christians seem to have w/ Jesus.
Believing Jews, and Noahides who believe in HaShem, regard G’d as wonderfully kindly, loving, forgiving, and intimately involved with them and with all things. But Muslims worship an Allah who is literally a holy terror.
Meditating on these things, I feel very ignorant. I don’t know how these things can be.
If Hiram, or Robert, or Andrea, or anyone can help explain this stuff to me, I would sincerely appreciate it.
Michael,
Perhaps it’s because Islam views Allah as being an impersonal deity. Doesn’t Islam mean “submission”? This is a regression back to the religions of the heathen past, when human beings had to submit to the will of capricious and impersonal forces like devils, demons, and angry spirits.
Oppositely, Christians view G’d in much the same manner as a caring, interested Person. This obviously agrees with Judaism, and much of what Greek philosophers like Socrates and Epictetus said: G’d isn’t capricious or impersonal, although He might seem to be, but is an active Presence.
Christians and Jews might say that G’d is ultimately above the world; Socrates and Epictetus would say that G’d ultimately is the world (or that the world is contained within G’d), but they would agree with the Christians and Jews that G’d, appearances to the contrary, cares for each and every one of us:
“Believe in this one truth for certain, that no evil can befall a good man either in life or death, and that his fate is not a matter of indifference to the gods.” (Socrates)
The Greeks liked to play with terminology, using G’d (singular) and gods (plural) interchangeably. I’ve seen variations of the Socratic quote with the divine singular used rather than the divine plural.
Islam doesn’t have this sort flexibility. This is the prime character of Western monotheism, the overall elasticity. Modern monotheism draws upon several sources: Roman Catholicism, for all of its faults, is the meeting of the best of Greco-Roman and Jewish worlds. In Judaism, there are thinkers like Maimonides who draw upon Greeks like Aristotle and Plato. There have been reform movements in Western monotheism for centuries, from the earliest Catholic heresies, the Protestant Reformation, to Reform Judaism.
The flexibility with Judeo-Christianity is contrasted with the inflexibility of Islam.
R.
“Oppositely, Christians view G’d in much the same manner as a caring, interested Person. This obviously agrees with Judaism, and much of what Greek philosophers like Socrates and Epictetus said: G’d isn’t capricious or impersonal, although He might seem to be, but is an active Presence.”
I goofed on that paragraph. The first sentence should be, “Oppositely, Christians view G’d as a caring, interested Person.”
I don’t draw any kind of comparison between the Christian perspective of G’d and Allah. They are entirely different.
R.
How is that hundreds of millions of human beings seem to have an almost visceral need for a sort of personal “pal” of a god, in Jesus, while hundreds of millions of other human beings believe only in this holy terror of an Allah?
In some ways, Jesus seems more like HaShem. Jesus - a deity or semi-Divine or whatever supernatural being - is supposed to have something of HaShem’s loving, intimately connected, direct concern with the individual.
In some ways, Allah seems more like HaShem. Never mind Muhammed’s Quraninc comment that “there is no G’d other than the G’d in Whom the Children of Israel believe.” Islam’s Allah is no HaShem. But Allah is, like HaShem, both transcendental and imminent, infinite, supposedly absolutely One, without beginning or end, and completely impossible to portray or visually imagine.
I don’t think it’s necessary to get into the phenomenon of hundreds of millions who follow Buddhism or Confucianism since they, like Hinduism, allow the follower to imagine all sorts of gods who seem to represent different aspects of HaShem.
The thing is - we’re all human and here we have all these many Christians who sincerely, absolutely rely on this kind and loving personal god, this visible Son or son of G’d. At the same time, here we also have all these many Muslims who don’t seem to have the slightest need to worship any such deity. If you just knew Christians you’d think that Jesus fulfilled a basic human need. But then you encounter Muslims who have don’t seem to have any such need - who, in fact, worship an Allah, who doesn’t strike me as any kind of cuddly, personally concerned, personal god at all.
although i haven’t posted, i’ve been watching…. michael, i can’t tell you about anyone else’s perception of God, but i grew up believing in the approachable advocate (the nazarene) as a sort of elder brother/lawyer who would represent me before the Father, and vouch for me when i screwed up. and, because i knew everyone screwed up, it made sense to me that we all needed such an advocate.
if that were the extent of the jesus figure, there wouldn’t be such a huge problem with it, but then the church taught me that i really wasn’t worthy of such an advocate….how God could have made such schmucks as humans was a big question, but He loved us so much that He gave us that avenue…and the advocate loved us so much that he died in our stead…. how could we turn our backs on that?
it occurred to me more than once that jesus must have been pretty desperate, to love an unworthy creature that much. or, maybe i wasn’t such a piece of excrement, if God went to such measures to woo me back….and how did i get lost from the fold in the first place?
well, seems eve condemned all her children to death. hmmm. okay…if you say so. but God certainly could have seen it coming, couldn’t He?
my understanding of the scenario now is somewhat different, and i no longer labor under the tremendous load of guilt for being an unworthy, vile sinner. but, i still have questions, and i still need someone approachable.. with jesus out of the equation, it leaves me rather twisting in the wind….
i have read books and articles on the “correct concept of God” but i still need someone who CARES, someone who can be hurt by my rejection, who can smile with joy when i do the right thing. i need the “daddy” i thought i had when i was a christian.
in fact, that is one of the great losses many christians face when they join the ranks of b’nai noah. although i am not comfortable with christianity any longer, i have lost something of great value to me… an understanding of who i was. i haven’t yet resolved that, so i have to comfort myself with the notion of living a life pleasing to the God i’ve always loved. only problem is, i no longer think i know who He is……
Wow. Don’t know what to say. You’ve already read some of the “correct concept of G’d” materials. . . I must say, though, that a lot of what I’ve read in that genre has been by people who believed in an ice-cold Deity. They don’t believe in or anyway their philosophy doesn’t accept a G’d Who cares. . . G’d tells us clearly that He does care, that when we turn away from Him He’s hurt like a good, loving husband whose wife stupidly abandons him.
When Jews lose Torah they don’t lose belief in G’d, usually. Instead, they just think of G’d as being distant and uninvolved.
Most of the point of the Hebrew prayers (most of which were enacted by a body of men including prophets as well as sages) is to remind you that He isn’t distant or uninvolved but very intimately involved, immanent and not just transcendent, an infinite Being of infinite capacities. What is the proper way to love G’d? Like a lovesick lover (Maimonides). . .
You should see some of the folks at my shul at prayers. We have all these rabbis. . . I was thinking of this just this evening, being in a little different spot from my usual place, closer than usual to this one rabbi as he recited the shema (Hear O Israel. . .) and then the rest of the ma’ariv/evening prayers.
Fervent, eyes closed, G’d-intoxicated, pouring his heart out. . . HaShem is no distant Presence to this man. . .
I don’t know what else to say. . . I think it would be a good thing to try to explain how prayer is supposed to work, to go through parts of the Hebrew worship service and show folks how the prayers themselves help people understand who and what one is. . . they are a terrific help, probably indispensable (particularly for BN), and it bothers me that more BN don’t know that much about them.
I can’t see that we’re likely to have Temple service reinstated anytime soon. In the meantime, we have these incredible prayers. . . I wonder if they wouldn’t be the perfect place to go to look for the restoration you may need.
You know, so much of what we’re doing here - w/ BN, and all this universal monotheism - is finding out what it takes, what works, what’s true, what people need. We can’t give anyone a full-grown, mature “religion,” just a lot of information, logical reasoning, and - as in this case - somewhat ad hoc practices. . . Anyway, what would you say to some videos on, say, some of the the morning prayers? How to introduce higher levels of G’d consciousness into the day?
yes, my post does sound like “little girl, lost.” sometimes i feel that way. i think we all do, if we’re honest enough with ourselves, and with our God, to say so. i greatly appreciate your statement that “we can’t give anyone a full-grown, mature religion.”
often, i feel as though that’s precisely what many religious folk are trying to do….those who quote long tractates or pages of Bible or preach at me…. yet, under it all, i don’t think they know God any better than i do. we all must connect with Him in our own way. nobody can do it for us. we must question, and test, and figure it out….
i know several men who call themselves just “simple jews.” salt of the earth, they are. God is as real and present to them as He always was to me.
until quite recently, i never knew that allah was not the same “person” as the God i worshipped. i am not sure how it took such a wrong turn. ironic, isn’t it? christianity, one of judaism’s daughter religions, keeps the understanding of a loving God, but transposes it onto an “older brother.” islam fiercely holds to one God, allah, no intermediary, but also no warm fuzzies.
and then, there are the “simple jews, the simple God-fearers,” who don’t bother themselves with any fancy concepts at all. they just go through their days like tevye…talking to God, loving their famiies, and trying to do it right. that’s where i like to think i belong…. and that’s why i STILL say, living by God’s rules isn’t that complicated. (mmmm. seems to me i said that about forty posts ago.)
okay. time for me to hush my mouth.
All,
I’m impressed at all of your statements. I appreciate them all.
My understanding, for myself, is that we can find in G’d those things which we need by the recognition of the Divine connection that is found in the Seven Laws.
We all want to have a personal connection to our Creator. Not one that we see or feel or hear, but one that is inside.
When I read the Torah, that is what I get out of it.
We can go to G’d with all our personal stuff and say, “Look, I’m only human, but I recognize you. I want to show you complete honor for taking the time to Create me and allowing me to exist. You teach us how to behave. You teach us how to correct our internal inperfections. You teach us how to deal with each other and, most importantly, that we need to recognize You”.
The Torah teaches us how to deal with our physicological needs and how to focus those towards a connection with HaShem.
Michael, you gave a great answer. You and Robert also showed something. I don’t know who else noticed it, but when I read the perspectives you both gave on Christianity and Islam, you showed the age old inbalance of the two aspects of G’d depicted in Creation that are needed in this world.
I’m talking about Justice and Mercy.
What you find in Islam and in Christianity is an extreme version of both of these concepts. One calls for strict Justice, while the other calls for strictly Love and Mercy. And, both, leave no room for correct balance of the two. They actually go to the point of perverting the concepts by their version.
Islam portrayes a G’d that takes away free-will and forces a recognition and subjugation. Christianity’s need for tangible connection portrayes G’d as “someone” who had to die for you in order to achieve a connection.
The Torah stands up and says, “G’d is no man that he should lie, nor a son of man that he should repent”. It also teaches us that G’d is merciful; he took the Children of Israel from bondage in Egypt to make of them a witness of His Existence. He fed them in the desert, he parted the waters so that they could walk to safety and other instances as well. Everyone knows how he deals when applying Justice as well. But, more importantly, He gave us the option to choose whether to accept Him or not.
By now, I hope you are asking youself, “Why does He give us the option?”
In my point of view, it’s because, when we choose to acknowledge Him, it means much more to us than if He was trying to make us acknowledge Him. We do it out of Love for Hashem instead of “guilt and fear”. We do it with Joy in understanding His Ways and that it is for our good and not for a “yoke”.
The rules setup by G’d are both complicated and easy to follow. They are complicated because we are complicated. Our emotions play a big part in our lives. These emotions can get in the way of rational thought. The rules, I prefer to call them principles, need a clear mind in order to understand their intent so that we may apply it in the materialized world. Once we get that far, we see how simple they are. Until then, you will continue to see its complications when emotions are involved. And, you may have a harder time with one over the others. You may have a hard time with more than one.
The goal, however, is to remember to keep trying and keep seeking and studying in order to gain clear understanding. This understanding will take you closer to being Just, Merciful and Righteous.
Shalom,
Hiram
Good answers. . .
I get the feeling that no one has any particular interest in watching praying-lessons. . .
I’m still curious, how is that Christians need Jesus as intercessor or buddy or advocate or whatever to the extent that you’d think it was almost a basic human need, like the need for vitamin C or A, while Muslims - we’ll leave the Hebrew community of faith out of this - generally seem to have no such need at all. In fact, it’s hard for me to figure what appeal there is in Islam, beyond community and feeling that you’re on the good side of Power - that you’re “saved,” in other words.
Michael,
I actually do want to see those. I meant to say that last time. Sorry.
I’ve never understood Islam. It’s a cultural religion for sure.
As far as Christianity, it’s the whole idea that Jesus fulfilled the Prophecy of the OT, so people don’t know any better because they don’t study the OT in their bibles to see what it really says and to see if it truly supports the NT. Even more importantly, they don’t believe a non-Christian can provide any understanding on the Tanakh, so many don’t have the desire to learn from the original source. They think Israel missed it and they will eventually come to accept JC as their messiah.
They “think not” when it comes to wanting to seek out Truth.
I work with an ex-Youth minister. We were just talking about different issues a while back and she said, “sometimes I read some things in the OT and I have to distance myself from it because it will just confuse me. I just believe that Jesus died for our sins and he’s going to return to.. etc.” I said to her, “what if I told you that it isn’t meant to be confusing, but to show us the Truth?”. She just smiled and kept telling me some other stuff.
I gave her a copy of my Isaiah 7 and 53 essay and the other day she said to me that she is going through it, but that it’s just taking her a bit of time. She wants to make sure she reads it carefully.
That came about because I told her I used to believe the same way she did until I realized the OT doesn’t support the NT on that statement of JC.
She decided she wanted to “win me back” by setting out to prove to me that the OT does say that JC is the prophecied messiah.
I don’t know what her response is going to be, but in the meantime we’ve developed a good working relationship based on other conversations we’ve had about the low level of morals in our society and what we as a religious whole can do to make things better around us, as much as we can that is. Oh, my wife works with me in my office, so she’s a part of all this as well.
She’s a really cool person and I’m glad she’s my immediate supervisor. She’s easy to get along with and helps get things taken care of when we need to.
Anyway, just wanted to share that.
Best regards,
Hiram
What’s more likely is that Islam is a de-evolution of Judaism or Christianity. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a more vengeful group of people than fanatical Muslims. All of that bile and hatred, pent-up towards Jews and Christians. And for what? Because the Islamists can’t collectively get out of that brutal mindset that vanished hundreds and thousands of years ago in most of the other world religions.
I don’t think that brutal mindset of which you speak has disappeared or vanished. I think it serves a purpose in the world - in this case, in its current Islamic incarnation, one of the purposes it seems to serve is to challenge Israel and the West.
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